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>>> THE MEDICAL EXAMINER TESTIFIES ABOUT THE CAUSE OF DEATH FOR LILLIAN ENT WIS L. A GUNSHOT WOUND TO THE CHEST BUT THE BIG QUESTION IS, WHO WAS IT PULLED THE TRIGGER? AS THE DEFENSE SUGGESTING THAT HER MOTHER KILLED HER AND COMMITTED SUICIDE? WE ARE LIVE TODAY AS BAMFIELD AND FORD TAKE YOU COURTSIDE. GOOD THURSDAY AFTERNOON. ALL OF YOU WELCOME. I'M JACK FORD. >> I'M ASHLEIGH BANFIELD AND THIS IS ME SPEECHLESS. RIGHT OFF THE TOP OF THE SHOW. >> YOU'RE NOT REALLILY. >> NO. I'M MAD! >> IT'S GRABBED PEOPLE HERE. >> HAS IT EVER. >> JUST JOINING US, GREATER DETAIL AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN INSIDE OF THE COURTROOM, YOU KNOW HOW WE'VE BEEN TALKING FOR WEEKS ABOUT THE DEFENSE HERE. WELL, IT SEEMS TO BE SEEPING INTO THE COURTROOM HERE THAT THE DEFENSE MAY WELL BE THAT RACHEL EBT WEST L IS PULLING THE TRIGGER. >> OKAY. >> AND THAT HAS -- >> THAT'S GOT ME SPEECHLESS. I'M SORRY. FIRST OF ALL, I HAVE NEVER, EVERY HEARD OF SOMEBODY SO SUCCESSFUL AT A MURDER/SUICIDE THAT HE OR SHE COULD ACTUALLY KILL HIM OR HERSELF AND THEN SOMETHING GET RID OF THE GUN. >> YEAH. YOU ARE REALLY GOOD -- >> REAL MAGICAL. MAYBE DAVID BLAIN IS OUT THERE TO TELL US HOW IT COULD WORK. >> A TALK TO ABOUT. ALL BREAKING INSIDE OF THE COURTROOM. BUT AGAIN, TO GIVE YOU THE SENSE OF CONTEXT, THAT'S ALWAYS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON INSIDE OF THE COURTROOM, OUR OWN BETH KARAS TAKEN A CLOSER LOOK AT FACTS OF THIS CASE. >> WE BELIEVE POSSIBLY THAT THIS WAS INTENDED TO BE A MURDER/SUICIDE BUT WE CANNOT CONFIRM THAT. OBVIOUSLY, THE MURDER WAS EFFECTED. THE SUICIDE WAS NOT. >> Reporter: ON A QUIET WINTER NIGHT OUTSIDE OF BOSTON, THE POLICE WERE CALLED TO THE HUS OF NEIL AND RACHEL ENTWISTLE. GUESTS ARRIVED FOR A DINNER PARTY BUT THE FAMILY WAS NOWHERE TO BE FOUND. POLICE DID A CURSORY SEARCH OF THE HOUSE TWICE BEFORE MAKING A GRUESOME DISCOVERY. >> NEIL ENTWISTLE WITH A FIREARM WE BELIEVE HE SECURED BEFORE THAT, SHOT RACHEL ENTWISTLE IN THE HEAD AND PROCEEDED TO SHOOT BABY LILLIAN WHO WAS LYING ON THE BED NEXT TO HER MOTHER. >> Reporter: THE ONE THING THEY COULD NOT FIND BUSINESS NEIL ENTWISTLE. MASSACHUSETTS INVESTIGATORS LEARNED HE RETURNED TO THE PARENTS'S HOME OUTSIDE OF LON DOI. >> NEIL ENTWISTLE WAS ARRESTED JUST BEFORE NOON LONDON TIME ON TWO CHARGES OF MURDER. THE MURDER OF RACHEL ENTWISTLE AND LILLIAN ENTWISTLE. >> Reporter: HE RETURNED TO THE UNITED STATES TO FACE THE CHARGES. SPECULATION IS THAT FINANCIAL DIFFICULTY MAY HAVE PLAYED A ROLE IN THE MURDERS. >> WOULD BE HELD WITHOUT BAIL. >> Reporter: THE ARRAIGNMENT IN A MASSACHUSETTS COURTROOM ATTRACTED NATIONAL MEDIA ATTENTION. IT'S CLEAR NOW THAT MR. ENTWISTLE IS FORMALLY CHARGED IN THIS COURT WITH TWO CRIMES OF MURDER. BY HIS PLEA OF NOT GUILTY, THE PROCESS THAT WE THINK IS IMPORTANT IN THIS COUNTRY OF JUSTICE AND FAIRNESS IS UNDER WAY. >> Reporter: DESPITE THE PLEA OF NOT GUILTY, SIX WEEKS AFTER THE ARRAIGNMENT, A GRAND JURY INDICTED HIM FOR THE MURDERS OF HIS WIFE AND BABY DAUGHTER. >> I AM GOING TO VIGOROUSLY, AGGRESSIVELY AND SUCCESSFULLY DEFEND MR. ENTWISTLE. I'M GOING TO DO THAT IN THE ONLY ARENA THAT COUNTS AND THAT IS THE COURTROOM. >> WELL, THINGS TAKING PLACE INSIDE OF THAT COURTROOM AND HEATED UP A LITTLE BIT IN THE COURSE OF THE SESSION TODAY. A REMINDER THAT THEY TAKE OF THE BREAK TODAY AND LIVE WITH TESTIMONY TODAY. JOINING NOUS LIVE OUTSIDE OF THE COURTHOUSE, BETH, LET'S COME RIGHT TO YOU. WE'VE BEEN SITTING HERE SAYING THAT THIS, THE DEFENSE REVEALED NODS FT COURTROOM. WE HEARD A PIECE TALKING ABOUT MURDER/SUICIDE. BUT DIRECTING ITS TOWARDS NEIL ENTWISTLE AND RACHEL ENTWISTLE WITH THE MURDER OF THE CHILD AND TAKES HER OWN LIFE. >> THIS IS THE PAGE OF THE CROSS-EXAMINATION. WHEN SHE PULLED OUT THE BOOK ON GUNSHOT WOUNDS, AND STARTED ASKING THE SERIES OF QUESTIONS ABOUT ISN'T IT TRUE A SMALL HANDGUN THE CHOICE OF SUICIDE AND TOUGH TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE AND SOMETIMES LOOKING INTO THE BACKGROUND, A PSYCHOLOGICAL AUTOPSY AND THEN ISN'T IT TRUE THAT LIKE 92% OF -- I FORGET THE PERCENT AND. 92% OF WOMEN THAT COMMIT SUICIDE USE HANDGUNS. SHE'S DRAWING THE FACTS OF THE BOOK. WHICH WE SAW AND WE HEARD FROM HIM AT PHIL SPECTOR'S TRIAL AND THIS WAS AN ISSUE, THE ISSUE IN THE SPECTOR CASE. AND THE EXAMINATION IS CONTINUING. THERE ARE SOME BIG QUESTIONS OUT THERE BECAUSE IF SHE SHOT THE BABY, HUGGED TO HER CHEST AND THE CONTACT WOUND, AND THEN SHOT HERSELF IN THE TOP OF THE HEAD, THAT GUN WOULD HAVE FALLEN TO THE FLOOR. SHE STILL GETS TUCKED IN UNDERNEATH THOSE BLAN WETS AND THE GUN GETS RETURNED 50 MILES AWAY AND PUT IN A LOCKED GUN CASE IN THE MASTER BEDROOM OF THE MATERAZZO HOME. IF NEIL ENTWISTLE FOUND THEM AND DID THAT, TUCKED THEM IN, COVERED THEM UP AND RETURNED THE GUN, HE'S NEVER, EVER SAID THAT IT WAS A SUICIDE. HE'S NEVER ADMITTED TO HANDLING THE GUN. NEVER SAID HE RETURNED IT TO THE GUN CASE. BUT HE HAS MADE A SERIES OF STATEMENTS THAT PLACE HIM IN THE BEDROOM. A LOT OF INCONSISTENCIES AND PLACES HIMSELF IN THE BEDROOM AT ABOUT 11:00 ON THE FRIDAY MORNING -- DIDN'T KNOW WHEN THE TIME OF DATE OF DEATH IS. SAY FRIDAY MORNING. AT 11:00. HE PLACES HIMSELF IN CARVER AT THE MATTERAZZO HOME BUT NEVER INSIDE IT. HE SAID HE COULDN'T GET INSIDE IT. I'M DIGESTING THEIR THEORY HERE TO SEE WHAT THEIR EXPLANATION WILL BE FOR THE GUN WITH HER BRAIN MATTER ON IT BEING RETURNED TO A LOCK BOX IN THE HOME. THEY MAY HAVE TO PUT NEIL ENTWISTLE ON THE STAND NOW TO EXPLAIN THIS. >> BETH, AS YOU KNOW FROM THE DAYS AS YOUR PROSECUTOR, THE DEFENSE DOESN'T NEED TO PROVE A MURDER/SUICIDE. THE GUN BEING IN THE HAND OF RACHEL ENTWISTLE. IF THEY CAN RAISE ENOUGH OF A QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER IT TOOK PLACE IN THE MINDS OF THE JURORS AND YOU HAVE TALKED ABOUT THE QUESTIONS THAT THE PROSECUTOR WOULD FOCUS ON HERE. BUT HOW ABOUT ANY OTHER EVIDENCE THAT MIGHT BE ARGUABLY IN THE CASE TO SUB STABT YATE THIS? FOR INSTANCE, WE HEARD TESTIMONY ABOUT GUNSHOT RESIDUE AND TESTS. HOW ABOUT RESIDUE ON RACHEL ENTWISTLE THAT PERHAPS COULD GO TO SUPPORT THE THEORY. ANYTHING? >> THEY DID DO RESIDUE KIT ON THE HANDS AND A COUPLE OF PARTICLES. THE TESTIMONY BEFORE THE MEDICAL EXAMINER, HE IS NOT AN EXPERT IN GUNSHOT RESIDUE AND HEARD FROM A FORENSIC SCIENTIST THAT THE PRESENCE OF RESIDUE DOES NOT TELL YOU WHO FIRED THE GUN BUT THE PERSON COULD HAVE FIRED IT, COULD HAVE HANDLED THE GUN OR BEEN IN THE PRESENCE OF THE GUN WHEN IT WAS FIRED. WE KNOW THAT GUNSHOT RESIDUE IS EASILY TRANSFERRED AND DIDN'T HAVE A LOT ON IT. WE DIDN'T HEAR EVIDENCE OF HOW MUCH IS RELEASED FROM THE .22 CALIBER BUT HAD A FEW PARTICULAR KLS ON HER AND SHOT IN THE HEAD AND ABDOMEN. I MEAN, THE HANDS IN THE VICINITY. THERE IS AN EXPLANATION TOTALLY INDEPENDENT OF SUICIDE FOR THAT. AND THERE ISN'T ANY ON NEIL ENTWISTLE AND COMES OFF -- WELL, HE DIDN'T LEAVE ANY ON THE STEERING WHEEL OF THE BMW BUT IT COMES OFF EASILY. CAN BE WASHED OFF EASILY. >> BETH, AS YOU MENTIONED, WE HEARD SOME QUESTIONS POSED BY STEPHANIE PAGE WERE BASED UPON DR.DY MY OWE'S TESTS AND YOU CAN EXAMINATION A WITNESS BASED ON OTHER EXPERT TREATIES. BUT IT ALSO MIGHT SUGGEST SETTING THE STAGE FOR EXPERT TESTIMONY OF THEIR OWN. HAVE WE HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT ANY EXPERT WITNESSES, MOST SIGNIFICANTLY DR. DIMAIO TESTIFYING FOR THE DEFENSE? >> WE HAVE NOT. I DO NOT SEE HIS NAME ON THE WITNESS LIST. IT IS POSSIBLE THAT THEY'RE GOING TO CALL AN EXPERT AND THEIR OWN FORENSIC SCIENTISTS, CRIMINALISTS. I DON'T THINK THEY NEED A PATHOLOGIST. THEY MIGHT. SOMEBODY WITH AN EXPERTISE LIKE HIM BUT NOT A PATHOLOGIST ON CAUSE OF DEATH. THEY COULD USE A SUICIDE EXPERT, I GUESS. THEY'RE OUT THERE AND EXIST. ALTHOUGH WE HAVE NOT SEEN ONE IN A CASE I COVERED BUT THEY'RE OUT THERE SO HE WON'T TELL -- I ASK ELLIOT WEINSTEIN EVERY DAY WHAT HE IS GOING TO DO AND HE IS JUST NOT TELLING US. >> BETH, LET ME BRING IN OUR GUEST TO JOIN IN THIS CONVERSATION IF WE CAN. RANDY JOYA JOINING US OUTSIDE OF THE COURTHOUSE OUT THERE. A WELL-KNOWN CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY AND GOOD TO HAVE YOU WITH US TO OFFER THOUGHTS AND PERSPECTIVES. YUMP RIGHT IN TO THIS DISCUSSION RIGHT AWAY. YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE KIND OF ALMOST STAGGERED BY HEARING THIS. WE WERE WONDERS WHAT THE DEFENSE IS GOING TO BE. ARE YOU AT ALL SURPRISED TO SEE THE DEFENSE ASKING THE QUESTION, GETTING IT OUT THERE AS A POSSIBILITY ABOUT THIS NOTION OF MAYBE RACHEL ENTWISTLE WAS THE ONE PULLING THE TRIGGER? WHAT DO YOU THINK? >> WELL, I MUST SAY I'M A BIT SURPRISED BUT AFTER LISTENING TO STEPHANIE PAGE'S CROSS-EXAMINATION, IT MAKES A LOT OF SEFS TO ME WHEN'S REALLY AT ISSUE HERE IS NOT THE CAUSE OF DEATH BUT THE MANNER OF DEATH. WAS IT A SUICIDE OR A HOMICIDE? AND SHE'S RAISING SOME ISSUES RELATIVE TO THE FACT THAT THE POLICE AND THE MEDICAL EXAMINER DID NOT REALLY RULE OUT SUICIDE IN THIS CASE. BY USING THE TEXT BY THE LINE OF QUESTIONING THAT SHE IS DOING, SHE'S SHOWING THAT THE MEDICAL EXAMINER BASICALLY ASSUMED THAT SINCE THE CAUSE OF DEATH WAS GUNSHOT WOUND, THEN THE MANNER OF DEATH WAS HOMICIDE. CERTAINLY THE MANNER OF DEATH OF LILLIAN'S DEATH IS HOMICIDE BUT THE MANNER OF DEATH OF RACHEL MAY BE A DIFFERENT STORY AND MAY BE A REASONABLE DOUBT HERE. AND I THINK BETH IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. THE BIG QUESTION BECOMES THEN WHAT HAPPENED TO THE GUN? >> YEAH. >> AND I THINK THAT IF YOU'RE GOING TO GO WITH THAT THEORY, I THINK NEIL ENTWISTLE MAY VERY WELL HAVE TO TESTIFY IN HIS OWN BEHALF. I THINK THAT'S WHERE THIS MAY BE LEADING. >> THIS COULD BE CHANGING THE CALCULUS OF THAT DECISION DRAMATICALLY FROM WHAT WE TALKED ABOUT BEFORE. RANDY, THE JOB OFTEN TIMES OF A DEFENSE ATTORNEY IS TO ASK QUESTIONS TO RAISE QUESTIONS. AND THAT'S WHAT THESE LAWYERS ARE DOING. WE SAID IT BEFORE. VERY GOOD LAWYERS ON BOTH SIDES AND GIVEN HOWEVER THE FACTS OF THIS CASE, DO YOU THINK IT COULD BE ENOUGH FOR THE DEFENSE TO SIMPLY GET IT OUT THERE BY POSING THE QUESTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN POSED SO FAR? OR DO YOU THINK IT'S MORE INCUMBENT UPON THEM TO BRING IN AN EXPERT TO REALLY PUT THIS QUESTION INTO PLAY IN THE JURORS' MINDS? >> I DON'T THINK THEY NEED TO BRING IN THEIR OWN EXPERT AND THEY MAY HAVE A HARD TIME DOING THAT BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING AS BETH SAYS ON THE WITNESS LIST OR THERE'S NOTHING IN THE DOCKET WHERE THEY HAVE GIVEN NOTICE TO THE PROSECUTION THAT THEY'RE GOING TO BRING IN AN EXPERT. SO IF THEY WERE TO TRY TO DO THAT AT THIS POINT, THEY WOULD HAVE TO MAKE AN ARGUMENT TO THE COURT THAT THEY COULDN'T GIVE NOTICE TO THE PROSECUTION. THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER THEY WERE GOING TO CALL AN EXPERT BUT BECAUSE OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES AND THE CHANGE IN CIRCUMSTANCES, THAT THEY NOW WANT TO CALL AN EXPERT AND VIGOROUSLY OPPOSED BY THE COMMONWEALTH SO I'M NOT SURE THEY'RE PLANNING TO CALL AN EXPERT. I THINK THEY HAVE ENOUGH HERE WITH THE WAY DR. ZAIN HAS ANSWERED THE QUESTIONS AND GONE ALONG WITH THE STATEMENTS AND IN THE TREATIES BY THE DOCTORS THAT THEY PROBABLY HAVE ENOUGH THERE TO AT LEAST SHOW THAT HE REALLY DIDN'T LOOK INTO THE QUESTION OF SUICIDE. HE DIDN'T REALLY RULE IT OUT THE WAY HE SHOULD HAVE AND IT RAISES PERHAPS A REASONABLE DOUBT AS TO THE MANNER OF DEATH. >> BACK TO BETH FOR A MOMENT. BETHN TERMS OF THE QUESTION OF WHETHER OR NOT WE MIGHT SEE NEIL ENTWISTLE ON THE WITNESS STAND, WE HAVE TALKED BEFORE ABOUT THE FACT THAT WE EXPECT ONE OF THE STATES OR THE COMMONWEALTH INVESTIGATORS TO TESTIFY, AND PART OF THAT TESTIMONY IS GOING TO BE FOCUSING ON A CONVERSATION THAT HE HAD WITH NEIL ENTWISTLE. TELL US WHAT THAT CONVERSATION IS ABOUT, AND WHETHER WE EXPECT THAT THE JURORS WILL HEAR THE VOICE, AT LEAST THE VOICE OF NEIL ENTWISTLE THROUGH THE TAPED CONVERSATION. >> YES. I DO BELIEVE TODAY OR TOMORROW THE JURY WILL HEAR AN AUDIO TAPED TELEPHONE CALL MADE ON THE MORNING, EASTERN TIME, MORNING OF JANUARY 23rd. YEAH, JANUARY 23rd FROM THE UK TO TROOPER -- WELL, I THINK THE TROOPER PLACED THE CALL. HE WAS FROM THE U.S. TO THE UK TALKING TO TROOPER MANNING. NOW, WE ONLY KNOW IN BROAD STROKES WHAT WAS SAID OR WHATEVER THE D.A. DECIDED TO RELEASE IN THEIR OWN STATEMENT OF THE CASE AND THEN SOME OF THE FILINGS IN THE CASE. WE DO NOT KNOW THE DETAIL OF THIS STATEMENT. PRESUMABLY THE TROOPER MANNING IS A SEASONED INVESTIGATOR AND WAS ASKING A SERIES OF QUESTIONS TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND THE SCENARIO THAT ENTWISTLE WAS LAYING OUT. MAYBE WE'LL HEAR HIM ASK HIM A LOT OF VERY DIRECT QUESTIONS ABOUT HIS WHEREABOUTS FROM THE TIME HE FOUND HIS WIFE AND BABY'S BODY TO FLEEING TO ENGLAND AND WHAT HE WAS DOING. WE HEARD INCONSISTENT STATEMENTS OF MADE TO FRIEND IN THE UK AND WE HEARD BROADLY WHAT HE'S SAID TO POLICE ALREADY. SO WHEN WE KNOW SOMETHING FROM OPENING STATEMENTS SO HE'S GOING TO HAVE TO RECONCILE THE INCONSISTEN INCONSISTENCIES. WE MAY HEAR FROM SOME STATEMENTS OR ABOUT SOME STATEMENTS MADE TO THE DEPUTY U.S. MARSHALS THAT TRANSPORTED HIM BACK TO THE U.S. NOT SURE THE D.A.'S GOING TO USE THOSE BUT THE DEFENSE TRIED TO EXCLUDE THEM AND MAYBE WE'LL HEAR FROM AN OFFICER THAT ARRESTED HIM IN LONDON. >> BACK TO RANDY, IF I CAN, FOR A MINUTE. RANDY, YOU WERE TALKING BEFORE ABOUT DOUZ THIS CHANGE? THIS CREATE MORE OF AN IMPETUS FOR NEIL ENTWISTLE TO TESTIFY. I THINK JUST ABOUT ALL THE ANALYSTS FOR THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS SAID IF THE DEFENSE WAS, LOOK, HE DIDN'T DO IT. WE DON'T KNOW WHO DID IT, BUT IT WASN'T HIM, MOST OF US SAID NOT A WHOLE LOT IN HIM FOR TO GET ON THE STAND AND TESTIFY BECAUSE OF THE OTHER PROBLEMS IN TERMS OF THE INCONSISTENT STATEMENTS AND THE JURY WILL HAVE HEARD HIM SAY IT WASN'T ME BUT YOU SEEM TO FEEL AND I DON'T DISAGREE WITH YOU AT ALL. YOU SEEM TO FEEL IF IN FACT THE DEFENSE IS GOING TO BE A MURDER-SUICIDE, WITH THE TRIGGER BEING PULLED BY RACHEL ENTWISTLE, THAT MIGHT JUST FORCE HIM TO TAKE THE STAND. WHY DO YOU THINK THAT? >> WELL, FOR ONE, WE DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT NEIL ENTWISTLE IS GOING TO TESTIFY TO. AND IF THE DEFENSE IS GOING TO FOCUS IN AND ZERO IN ON THE SUICIDE THEORY, AND NEIL ENTWISTLE HAD TOLD HIS LAWYERS, LOOK, I CAME UPON THE SCENE. THE GUN WAS THERE. OR AND I REALIZED MY WIFE HAD KILLED MY DAUGHTER AND COMMITTED SUICIDE AND I JUST FLIPPED OUT, I DIDN'T WANT ANYBODY TO KNOW AND I TOOK THE GUN AND I DECIDED THAT I WOULD BRING IT BACK TO THE HOUSE IN CARVER, THAT'S ONE POSSIBILITY. ANOTHER POSSIBILITY IS MAYBE THIS WAS A PLAN FOR A -- A JOINT SUICIDE. OR A FAMILY-TYPE SITUATION SUICIDE. I DON'T KNOW AND HE MIGHT HAVE SAID, RACHEL, DID IT AND SHE KILLED LILLIAN AND I JUST COULDN'T BRING MYSELF TO DO IT AND I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO AND I BROUGHT THE GUN BACK. I THINK IF THAT'S THE STORY, THEN CERTAINLY HE HAS TO TESTIFY. AND THAT EXPLAINS A LOT OF HIS ACTIONS AND EXPLAINS A LOT OF THE REASONS OF WHAT HE DID AFTERWARDS AND WHY HE FLEW TO ENGLAND AND WHY HE SAID WHAT HE SAID. I'VE ALWAYS THOUGHT ALL ALONG HE IS EITHER COVERING UP FOR SOMEBODY OR HE'S AFRAID TO REVEAL WHO THE KILLER IS. >> YEAH. WELL -- CERTAINLY RAISED INTERESTING QUESTION THAT IS WILL BE PLAYED OUT IN THE COURT. BACK TO BETH. BETH; BEFORE THE FAST BREAK HERE, SO WHAT DO WE EXPECT? WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE COURTROOM WHEN THEY COME BACK FROM THE BREAK? >> CROSS-EXAMINATION OF DR. ZAIN WILL CONTINUE. I DO EXPECT SOME REDIRECT EXAMINATION AND THEN PROBABLY MOVING ON TO SOME POLICE WITNESSES, MAYBE EVEN GETTING TO THE STATEMENTS THAT NEIL ENTWISTLE MADE ON JANUARY 23rd. >> ALL RIGHT, BETH, YOU'RE CONTINUING THE COVERAGE FOR US. RANDY WILL STAY WITH US. WE'LL FIT IN A QUICK BREAK HERE. WHEN WE RETURN, SOME OF THE IMPORTANT TESTIMONY OF YESTERDAY HAS TO DO WITH THE MOTIVE. PROSECUTORS SAY CAUSED THIS MAN TO KILL HIS WIFE AND CHILD. A POLICE OFFICER TESTIFYING ABOUT THE SEARCHES OF THE COMPUTERS, WHAT THEY SAY ARE DAMNING DISCOVERIES. ON THAT COMPUTER. SHOW YOU SOME OF THAT WHEN WE RETURN. DON'T GO AWAY. >>> WELL, IF YOU NEEDED ANY EVIDENCE THAT NEIL ENTWISTLE IS SEARCHING FEVERISHLY ON THE INTERNET FOR SEX, LOOK NO FURTHER THAN THIS COURTROOM IN MASSACHUSETTS. YESTERDAY IT WAS A FLURRY AND I'M TALKING A FLIR FLURRY OF WEBSITES ACCESSED AT A RAPID PACE. THE EVIDENCE SHOWS HE COULD NOT GO FAST ENOUGH BETWEEN SEX SITES AND SEX E-MAILS, ET CETERA. ALL IN THE DAYS LEADING UP TO DID DEATH OF HIS WIFE AND CHILD. MURDER? BY HIM? DON'T KNOW. STILL WONDERING ON THAT ONE. BUT IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT HIS PROFILE SIDE ON ADULT FRIEND FINDER.COM AND CAN I SAY FRIEND FINDER BECAUSE IT'S NOT REALLY ABOUT FRIENDS BUT IT IS ABOUT A WHOLE LOT MORE THAN FRIENDS, THEN YOU'LL WANT TO HEAR THIS TESTIMONY. BECAUSE DETECTIVE LAWRENCE JAMES WITH THE COMPUTER FORENSICS UNIT, MEDFORD POLICE, WAS KIND ENOUGH TO READ FOR US ALL IN COURT WHAT MR. ENTWISTLE DECIDED HIS PROFILE WOULD BE ON THE WEBSITE HE ESTABLISHED AND INCIDENTALLY LISTEN, VERY, VERY CAREFULLY FOR A CLUE. A VERY INTERESTING LITTLE CLUE IN THIS PIECE OF TESTIMONY. IT WILL COME TOWARDS THE VERY END BUT IT'S A DATE. AND IT'S A DATE THAT HIS MEMBERSHIP EXPIRATION TOOK EFFECT. TO THE ADULT FRIEND FINDER WEBSITE. IT EXPIRED ON A CERTAIN DATE. I WANT YOU TO LISTEN FOR THAT DATE IN THIS TESTIMONY. >> I'M PLACING BEFORE YOU A PAGE FROM EXHIBIT 86. IS THERE AN IDENTIFYING CHARACTERISTICS ON THAT PAGE? >> YES. >> WHAT IS THAT PAGE? >> THIS PAGE CONTAINS USER DATA FOR THE ACCOUNT SRPUB AT ADULT FRIEND FINDER.COM. >> AND YOUR HONOR, I'D ASK THAT TO BE PUBLISHED TO THE JURY AT THIS TIME. >> YES, YOU MAY. >> MR. JAMES, IF YOU CAN GO OVER TO THE COMPUTERS. >> MR. BARRY, MAY I SEE YOU FOR A MINUTE? >> SIR, READING THE THIRD LINE UP, LOOKING FOR DEFC COLON. WHAT DOES THAT SAY? WITH REGARDS TO THIS PROFILE. >> WOMEN FOR ONE ON ONE SEX. >> JACK, REALLY QUICKLY WHILE THEY'RE MOVING THE PAGES ALONG, DO THESE THINGS USUALLY HAVE A PRETTY BIG IMPACT ON THE JURY? >> YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT THE JURY WILL THINK ABOUT IT W. THE RESPONSES FROM THE VIEWERS, SOME SAY IT'S SO DAMNING. OTHERS SAY WHO KNOWS WHAT WHO WAS DOING THIS AND WHETHER OR NOT HE PULLED THE TRIGGER. >> YOU ARE ABOUT TO HEAR AS THIS WITNESS READS WHAT NEIL WROTE. >> SIR, WITH REGARDS TO THE PROFILE, CAN YOU READ THAT? >> FIRST PROFILE? >> YES, SIR. >> YES. I AM AN ENGLISHMAN JUST MOVED OVER TO THE U.S. I AM LOOKING FOR ONE ON ONE DISCRETE RELATIONSHIPS WITH AMERICAN LADIES AND ALWAYS AIM TO MAKE ALL EXPERIENCES ONES TO REMEMBER. >> SIR, CAN YOU READ PROFILE ONE? >> EXCUSE ME. I AM LOOKING TO MEET AMERICAN WOMEN OF ALL AGES. I NEED TO CONFIRM WHAT FRIENDS HAVE TOLD ME THAT YOU ARE MUCH BETTER IN BED -- I THINK THAT IS CUT OFF. I NEED TO CONFIRM WHAT FRIENDS HAVE TOLD ME THAT YOU ARE MUCH BETTER IN BED THAN WOMEN OVER THE OCEAN. AS FROM THERE. WE BOTH WANT THE SAME THING SO THERE'S LITTLE POINT DRAGGING IT OUT HERE. >> OKAY. THANK YOU FOR THAT, MR. ENTWISTLE. SURE APPRECIATE IT. ADULT FRIEND FINDER.COM. JACK, DID YOU NOTICE THE DATE THAT THAT EXPIRED? THAT WOULD BE THE DAY THAT HE WAS FLYING ONE WAY NO BAGGAGE TO ENGLAND WITH DEAD BODIES IN HIS HOUSE. >> YEAH. AND AGAIN, THE PROSECUTION SAYS, LOOK. THIS IS TELLING YOU WHAT THIS GUY IS ALL ABOUT AND THIS WILL MAKE IT EASIER FOR YOU, ACCORDING TO THE PROSECUTION, TO SAY, YES, HE COULD HAVE BEEN THE ONE THAT PULLED THE TRIGGER HERE. THAT'S THE HUMP TO GET OVER. ALL THE WITNESSES SAY THAT THEY APPEARED TO HAVE A LOVING RELATIONSHIP. NO HISTORY OF VIE RENS OR HIM HAVING SOMEBODY ELSE, NOT AN AMBER FREY/SCOTT PETERSON KIND OF DEAL AND THE DEFENSE WILL SAY, ARE YOU WILLING TO SAY THAT SOMEBODY WOULD KILL HIS WIFE AND DAUGHTER BECAUSE FOR WHATEVER REASON THEY WERE ONLINE LOOKING FOR SEX WITH SOMEBODY? >> THAT PART I GET. I COMPLETELY GET IT AND SO FAIR THAT AN ADULTERER DOES NOT A MURDERER MAKE BUT ON THE OTHER HAND WHEN YOU ARE TRYING TO IMPLORE A JURY AS A DEFENSE ATTORNEY TO PLEASE GIVE MY CLIENT THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT, HOW EASILY IS IT CHIPPED AWAY AT? I MEAN, IF YOU START HATING THIS GUY BECAUSE AFTER THAT. >> YEAH. HUMAN DYNAMICS IN THE JURYROOM. WHEN THEY CLOSE THE DOOR, IF THEY ARE FEELING THAT A DEFENDANT IS ABSOLUTELY DESPICABLE, ARE THEY AS WILLING TO GIVE HIM THE BEB FIT OF THE DOUBT? PROBABLY NOT. HUMAN NATURE. ALTHOUGH THEY HAVE TO TALK IT OUT AND NOT THE WAY IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE. IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE TO GET THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT IF THEY'RE SLEAZY OR NOT. IF THE SLEAZINESS IMPACTED IF THEY COMMITTED THE CRIME, IF IT CREATES A MOTIVE, IT IS FAR MORE SIGNIFICANT FOR THEM. >> YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BASICALLY TELL JURORS WHAT A MOTIVE IS. YOU CAN SUGGEST ACT BUT YOU CAN'T SAY, HMM, DOESN'T THAT SOUND LIKE A GOOD REASON TO KILL YOUR WIFE? >> YOU CAN SAY THAT AS A PROSECUTOR. >> YOU CAN? NOT JUST LAY IT OUT? >> SAY IN THE SUMMATION, YOU KNOW WHY HE DID IT? I'LL TELL YOU WHY. HE DID IT BECAUSE -- YOU PUT YOUR LIST UP THERE AND POINT TO THE THINGS ON THE LIST. >> BUT IN SUMMATION. >> IN SUMMATION. YOU KNOW, I HAVE TO BE HONEST EVEN THOUGH WE'RE ASKING THE EXTREMELY INTERESTING CONVERSATIONS, HALF OF ME ESPECIALLY AFTER TODAY THE SUGGESTION OF A MURDER/SUICIDE THING HALF OF ME THINKS, WELL, WHAT AM I DOING HERE? WHAT'S THE POINT? WHY HAVE THE CONVERSATION. THIS CONVERSATION IS OVER. HALF -- AND WONDERING IF THE JURY IS THINKING THE SAME THING. I AM OFFEND THAT ANYONE SUGGEST RACHEL KILLED THE BABY AND HERSELF. >> THAT'S THE DEFENSE'S JOB IF THERE'S FACTS THERE TO GET IT OUT THERE, THE JOB IS TO GET IT OUT THERE. JURORS MIGHT REACT THE WAY YOU REACT OR MAY MIGHT SAY, HUH. I DIDN'T THINK ABOUT THAT. BUT MAYBE THAT'S SOMETHING I HAVE TO THINK ABOUT. >> GOOD POINT. I SURE HOPE THEY'RE MORE ABLE TO CONTINUE THINKING ABOUT THIS MAN AS INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY THAN I AM AT THIS POINT. I THINK IT'S SOMETHING THAT WILL PASS AND I NEED TO BREATHE. I'LL TAKE THREE MINUTES TO DO AND THEN SPEAK TO SOMEONE WHO'S A GREAT SOURCE ON THIS STORY. IT'S THE GUY FROM THAT LOCATION. HE IS THE MAN WHO STARTED THIS STORY. HE'S GOT THE WEBSITE TO PROVE IT. HE HAD THE INSIDE SKINNY WHEN NONE OF THE OTHER BIG JOURNALISTS HAD IT. HE'LL JOIN US TO TELL US HOW IT'S TRANSPIRED FROM BEGINNING AND CLEARLY HE'S GOING TO TAKE THIS ONE TO THE END. HE HAS SOME REALLY GOOD INSIGHTS. BACK AFTER THIS. >>> INVESTIGATORS HAVE LEARNED THAT NEIL ENT WEST SL OUT OF THE COUNTRY. I WON'T COMMENT FURTHER ON THAT BUT I'LL SAY THAT WE ARE AWARE OF WHERE HE IS. WE HAVE, IN FACT, BEEN IN TOUCH WITH HIM. AND CONTINUE TO INVESTIGATE THIS CASE. >> THAT WAS MARTHA COKELY AS THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY. SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT NEIL ENTWISTLE AND THIS CASE THAT WE ARE NOW TRYING IN MASSACHUSETTS. JOINING US FROM OUTSIDE OF THE COURTHOUSE, ROBERT FAZIANO, THE EDITOR AND FOUNDER OF HOPNEWS.COM. ROBERT ATTENDED THE VERY FIRST PRESS CONFERENCE HELD BY POLICE WITH REGARD TO THE MURDER OF RACHEL ENTWISTLE AND DAUGHTER AND FOLLOWING THIS CASE EVER SINCE. BEEN A WHILE. CERTAINLY PROBABLY ONE OF THE MORE INTERESTING PARTS OF THIS COVERAGE FOR YOU, ROBERT. TAKE ME BACK TO THE PHONE CALL THAT YOU GOT, STRANGELY ENOUGH FROM THE CHIEF OF POLICE WHICH DOESN'T HAPPEN TO A LOT OF REPORTERS. WHEN YOU WERE INFORMED THERE WAS A DOUBLE HOMICIDE IN YOUR TOWN. >> WELL, I WAS HAVING COFFEE ACROSS THE STREET FROM MY PHOTOGRAPHY STUDIO WHERE WE HAVE THE NEWS ORGANIZATION BASED WHEN A FRIEND TURNED TO ME AFTER RECEIVING A PHONE CALL AND SAID, DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT A DOUBLE HOMICIDE IN HOP CANS DINTON AND BEING THE FIRST WITH THE NEWS WE LIKE TO SAY, I SAID, OF COURSE NOT. IF WE DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT IT THEN IT DIDN'T HAPPEN AND THEN MY PHONE RANG, THE CHIEF OF POLICELETING US KNOW OF A 10:00 A.M. PRESS CONFERENCE IN THE POLICE STATION. I SAW MOST OF THE BOSTON STATIONS AND WILL THE OF BOSTON NEWSPAPER REPORTERS THERE. AND MARTHA COKELY, THE THEN D.A. HAD A P.R. GUY WALKING AROUND IS THE GLOBE AND HERALD HERE AND 7 NEWS. I SAID "HOPKINTON NEWS" IS HERE TO WHICH THEY BURST INTO LAUGHTER. >> I WAS READING THROUGH THE STORIES FOR TWO AND A HALF YEARS. SOMETHING I THOUGHT WAS REALLY UNUSUAL. IT WAS A DETAIL THAT YOU REPORTED ABOUT THAT NEWS CONFERENCE IN WHICH YOU ALL WERE TOLD THAT THE HUSBAND IN THIS CASE WAS TRAVELING. WASN'T A SUSPECT IN THE CASE. YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN TO THE NEWS CONFERENCES BEFORE. I WOULDN'T HAVE BLINKED AN EYE. IF THE HUSBAND TRAVELING, THE WIFE AND DAUGHTER FOUND MURDERED IN THEIR BED. IT WOULDN'T HAVE MADE MY THINK TWICE BUT FOR THE FACT THAT THEY. >> PARENTALLY SHOWED HIS DRIVER'S LICENSE TO EVERYBODY? >> I DON'T RECALL SEEING HIS DRIVER'S LICENSE. HOWEVER, THEY DID SHOW RACHEL ENTWISTLE'S DRIVER'S LICENSE. THEY HAD A PRINTOUT OF IT WHICH THE TV CAMERAS AND TILL CAMERAS COULD TAKE A SHOT OF. THEY DID SAY THAT HE WAS TRAVELING. AND THE CHIEF OF POLICE DID LET THE RESIDENTS KNOW THAT THERE WAS -- THIS WAS NOT A RANDOM ACT. NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT. >> OKAY. THAT TOTALLY NOW HAS THE SPIDEY SENSES TINGLING BECAUSE IF THE DAD IS TRAVELING AND THIS HAPPENED TO A WIFE AND CHILD, THE ONLY THING I WOULD THINK IS THAT THERE'S SOMEBODY REALLY BAD LURKING OUT THERE. WHY -- WHY DID THEY THEY SORT OF LEAVE THAT OPEN ENDED LIKE THAT? >> I'M NOT CERTAIN. APPARENTLY THEY LEANED IN THE CERTAIN DIRECTION. IMMEDIATELY. IF THEY WERE TO SAY THAT THIS IS NOT A RANDOM ACT. SO, THEY FELT THAT THEY PERHAPS HAD A SUSPECT VERY EARLY ON. >> DID YOU FEEL FEEL THAT PERHAPS THAT SUSPECT MIGHT BE IN FACT THE DAD? >> I BELIEVE THAT AS THE DAYS WENT ON AND HIS WHEREABOUTS BECAME KNOWN, THAT PEOPLE DID BELIEVE THAT. IN FACT, WE DID A POLL ON HOPNEWS.COM. THE RESULTS OF THAT -- >> WHAT WAS IT? >> ON JANUARY 30th OF 2006 WHICH WASN'T THAT MUCH LATER, THE POLLS' QUESTION IS IF ENTWISTLE FAILS TO SHOW FOR THE FAMILY'S FUNERAL, WOULD YOU ASSUME GUILT, THINK HE FEARS FOR HIS LIFE OR ASSUME INNOCENCE? 4% ASSUMED INNOCENCE. 63% ASSUMED HE WOULD BE GUILTY NOT SHOWING FOR HIS FAMILY'S FUNERAL. >> I THINK THAT NUMBER'S ONLY CLIMBING SINCE WITH THE VERY STRANGE BEHAVIOR COMING OUT AS EVIDENCE. LET ME ASK YOU A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE BEHAVIOR BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN TALKING A BIT ABOUT THE FACT HE DIDN'T SHOW UP FOR THE FUNERAL AND SENT CARDS AND FLOWERS. BUT THEN I ALSO READ IN YOUR REPORTING, I THINK YOU MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE ONLY ONE THAT NOTICED THIS, THAT THE OBITUARY CAME OUT IN THE PATRIOT LEDGER AND THERE WAS NO MENTION ANYWHERE IN THAT OBITUARY OF NEIL ENTWISTLE. I'M ASSUMING THAT MIGHT HAVE STARTED YOU ON THE THOUGHTS OF AN ARREST IN THIS CASE. >> OH, ABSOLUTELY. WE ACTUALLY DUG THAT UP FROM LITTLE BIT OF DETECTIVE WORK. EARLY ON, WE HAD A LOT OF VISITS OF NATIONAL, LOCAL, REGIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL MEDIA AND AMONG THOSE PEOPLE WAS JAMES BONE OF THE TIMES OF LONDON. AND WE KIND OF GOT ON THE PHONE AND DUG AROUND THAT -- NOT -- OF COURSE, I'M USED TO DOING MEETINGS AND PLANNING BOARD MEETINGS AND THEN THRUST INTO THIS ROLE AND FOUND OUT OF A PHONE CALL WHAT TOWN THIS IS GOING TO BE IN. AND AS SOON AS SOMEBODY ONE OF THE FUNERAL HOMES SAID, WELL, WE CAN'T GIVE THAT INFORMATION OUT, IT WILL BE IN THE LEDGER TOMORROW, WELL, WE KNEW WHERE IT WAS GOING TO BE HELD. >> YOU KNOW, I GOT TO TELL YOU, I WORKED MY VERY FIRST JOB IN A TOWN OF ONTARIO, POPULATION AT THE TIME OF AROUND, HMM, 11,000 AND IT WAS A VERY SMALL TOWN AND I GET IT. I DID THE SELECTMANS' MEETINGS, TOO. I HAVE TO READ TO THE AUDIENCE SOMETHING THAT YOU WROTE ON YOUR WEBSITE. AT FIRST I THOUGHT IT WAS KIND OF FUNNY AND THEN REALIZED IT IS NOT FUNNY AT ALL. IT IS REALLY THE WAY IT WAS. YOU CALL IT THE POLICE NEWS TEASER. SOME PEOPLE CALL THEM POLICE BLOTTERS. THE LIST OF ACTIVITY THAT IS HAVE TRANSPIRED THAT HAVE, YOU KNOW, RAISED THE INTEREST OF POLICE IN A CERTAIN 24-HOUR PERIOD AND THIS IS ABOUT FEBRUARY 15th, 2006, IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN 8910:13 P.M., POLICE RECEIVED A REPORT OF SOME FLASHING BLUE LIGHTS. 3:00 P.M., TWO YOUTHS THROWING SNOWBALLS AT A SCHOOL BUS AND 7:58, NEIL ENTWISTLE WAS ARRESTED UPON HIS RETURN TO THE UNITED STATES IN AN AIR FORCE BASE AND CHARGED WITH TWO COUNTS OF MURDER. THOSE ARE THREE EXTRAORDINARILY DIFFERENT KINDS OF ENTRIES IN A POLICE BLOTTER TO WHICH I ASSUME YOU NEVER WOULD HAVE THOUGHT YOU WOULD HAD A CHANCE TO REACT. >> YOU KNOW, I NEVER WOULD HAVE DREAMED THAT THIS KIND OF THING WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IN HOPKINTON OR ANYWHERE, REALLY. IT IS TOUGH TO REALLY CONTEMPLATE THIS CRIME AND TO INTERNALIZE IT BECAUSE IT IS SO -- IT IS SO ASTROESHS, DEPICKIBLE, TO IMAGINE BUT WE HAD TO DO THAT AND HOPKINTON ITSELF HAD SOME TRAGEDIES A. HOUSE DID EXPLODE A FEW YEARS BEFORE AND TWO YOUNG GIRLS DIED. ONE WHILE HOLDING HER FATHER'S HAND. WE HAD SINCE -- AND I BELIEVE IT WAS THE DAY THAT JURY SELECTION BEGAN ON THIS TRIAL, A HOPKINTON POLICE OFFICER'S SISTER-IN-LAW WAS FOUND STABBED TO DEATH. IN WHAT THEY SAID WAS A MURDER/SUICIDE. IN THE NEXT TOWN OVER, UPTON. >> THAT'S INTERESTING. >> YEAH. THIS WAS -- WE HAD ALSO SHORTLY AFTER THIS -- AND THERE'S NO BLACK CLOUD HERE BECAUSE HOPCOINTON IS A GREAT LITTLE TOWN AND KNOWN FOR THE MARATHON AND BEING THE HOME OF WORLDWIDE HEADQUARTERS FOR EMC CORPORATION. BUT IN THE SHORT TIME FEW WEEKS FOLLOWING THE ENTWISTLE DISCOVERY, MURDER, WE HAD A YOUNG MAN ON THE ROOF OF A HIGH SCHOOL PRESUMABLY THREATENING TO HURT HIMSELF, KILL HIMSELF, JUMP OFF. FOUR STORIES TO THE GROUND ON THE BACK OF THAT HIGH SCHOOL AND OFFICER PHIL POWERS DISTRACTED HIM AND GRABBED HIM FROM THE ROOF. >> WELL, YOU KNOW, I'M GLAD YOU BROUGHT THESE THINGS UP BECAUSE ONE OF THE QUESTIONS TO ASK YOU AND I DIDN'T MEAN TO ASK IT IN ANY KIND OF DISPARAGING WAY, HARD TO ASK WITHOUT IT SOUNDING SOMEWHAT DISPARAGING, IN A TOWN LIKE YOURS, WOULD DETECTIVES HAVE TO DEAL WITH A CRIME OF THIS MANAGER ANY TUESDAY BE OVER THEIR HEADS IN FACT THAT HOPKINTON IS NOT A PLACE WHERE A DOUBLE MURDER AND EXTRADITION PROCEEDING WOULD TRANSPIRE EVERY DAY. >> WELL, ACTUALLY, I HAVE FOLLOWED THESE GUYS AROUND FOR YEARS NOW. ANSWERING CALLS ON THE SCANNER. JUST RUNNING ACROSS SOMETHING AND SPOKEN WITH THESE FOLKS. THEY DO A GREAT JOB WITH WHAT THEY DO AND I THINK THAT THE TESTIMONY WE HAVE HEARD SO FAR WITH THE SERGEANT LIFTING THE COMFORTER, PULLING IT BACK COMFORTABLY AND WALKING OUT OF THE ROOM WITH DETECTIVES VAN RALTON SPEAKS TO THE PROFESSIONALISM. I DON'T THINK ANY TOWN REALLY NECESSARILY HAS A MEDICAL EXAMINER ON STAFF AND A FORENSIC LAB. I THINK MOST OF THEM RELY ON THE MASSACHUSETTS STATE POLICE AND ON THE FBI FOR THESE TYPES OF INVESTIGATIONS. >> YEAH. WE'RE SEEING SOME PICTURES WHILE WE'RE TALKING OF NEIL ENTWISTLE VARIOUS STAGES. PARTICULAR PICTURES WE JUST SHOWED HIM IN A SWEATER WITH A JACKET LOOKING CASUAL. THE PICK NOWS NOW SHOWING IN POLICE CUSTODY. IT'S LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT. THERE'S ONE ENTRY IN THE REPORTING, I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S BLOGGING OR LIVE AS IT HAPPENS BUT ALMOST SEEMED LIKE STREAM OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND YOU MENTIONED YOU HAD A CHANCE TO LOOK RIGHT INTO THE EYES OF NEIL ENTWISTLE. I THINK IT WAS A TIME HE WAS BEING ESCORTED BETWEEN MAYBE THE POLICE STATION AND THE JAIL. AND I THINK YOU HAD ATTRIBUTED -- YOU ATTRIBUTED THE WORDS PRIM ORD YAL SENSE TO THE FEELING YOU GOT OVER THAT SPLIT SECOND MOMENT YOU CONNECTED WITH NEIL ENTWISTLE EYE TO EYE. CAN YOU DESCRIBE IT MORE FOR ME? >> I HAVE NEVER HAD THIS FEELING LOOKING INTO INSIDE ANYONE'S EYES. I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S AS A RESULT OF THE PUBLICITY AND ALL THAT WE HEARD ABOUT IT AND THE INVESTIGATIONS, BUT YOU KNOW, THAT PRIMORDIAL SENSE, IT WAS A BLACK HOLE. IT WAS REALLY UNLIKE -- ALMOST UNDESCRIBABLE BUT IT WAS NOT LIKE LOOKING IN ANYONE ELSE'S EYES AND LIKE I SAY, I DON'T KNOW IF I HAD BEEN JADED BY ALL OF THE PUBLICITY OR NOT OR IF IT WAS JUST A REAL SENSE AND AS I SEE HIM IN THE -- SAW HIM IN THE COURTROOM TODAY, YOU KNOW, AND I SEE HIM LOOKING AS THIS CLEAN CUT TYPE OF PERSON TO NEVER DO A CRIME LIKE THIS, THE WORDS OF THE DEFENSE ATTORNEY ELLIOT WEINSTEIN RING IN MY EARS AND I THINK THINGS ARE NOT ALWAYS AS THEY SEEM. >> HOW DID YOU FEEL WHEN YOU HEARD THIS BUSINESS TODAY ABOUT THE SUGGESTION FROM WEINSTEIN AND HIS TEAM THAT THIS ACTUALLY COULD END UP BEING A MURDER/SUICIDE, NOT INVOLVING NEIL AT ALL BUT INSTEAD BEING RACHEL BEING THE MURDERER AND LILLIAN BEING THE VICTIM OF THE MURDER/SUICIDE? HOW DID THAT GO OVER IN COURT? >> WELL, IF YOU SAY HOW DID IT GO OVER, YOU DON'T KNOW. IT'S A VERY -- IT'S A VERY QUIET SITUATION. NOBODY RESPONDS. NOBODY SNICKERS OR ANYTHING ELSE. HOWEVER, I BELIEVE THAT IT'S -- THIS ALMOST IS DESPICABLE AS THE ACT ITSELF TO SUGGEST THAT THE MEMORIES OF THOSE TWO PEOPLE SHOULD BE TAINTED IN -- WITH THE SUGGESTION THAT RACHEL DID THIS TO HERSELF. IN LIGHT OF ALL OF THE CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE THAT WE KNOW. WHY DIDN'T HE CALL THE POLICE? WHY DID HE GO TO CARVER? WHY DID HE GO TO THE AIRPORT AND FOUND HIMSELF AT THE AIRPORT? PERHAPS BECAUSE HE DROVE THERE IS WHY HE FOUND HIMSELF AT THE AIRPORT. WENT TO CARVER. COULD NOT GET IN THE HOUSE AND THERE WAS A KEY TO THE HOME ON THE KEY RING THAT HE LEFT BEHIND IN THE BMW WHICH I THINK REASONABLE PERSON COULD PRESUME THAT HE WAS HOPING THAT SOMEONE WOULD STEAL THAT BMW AND THEN BECOME A SUSPECT. >> WELL, THEY GO ON ONE FURTHER. WHY IF YOU DISCOVERED YOUR WIFE AND DAUGHTER IN A MURDER/SUICIDE SITUATION, WOULD YOU LOG ON AND CHECK THE E-MAIL? CLEARLY WE HAVE NOW EVIDENCE THAT HE LOGGED ON AT 12:30, 12:35, GIVE OR TAKE, HAD COMPUTER ACTIVITY AN HOUR AND A HALF HALF HE TELLS EVERYBODY THAT HE HAD DISCOVERED HIS WIFE AND BABY DEAD. I'M WITH YOU. MY INITIAL SENSE WAS ANGER THAT THE VICTIMS ONCE AGAIN IN A COURTROOM GET SULLIED. THEIR REPUTATIONS SMEARED AND THAT THIS DEFENDANT SITS SMUGLY SUGGESTING THAT THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED. BUT I'M -- I DON'T MATTER HERE. JURY MATTERS D. YOU GET A SENSE OF THEIR REACTION TO THIS KIND OF TESTIMONY? >> THERE'S VERY DIFFERENT TO GAUGE THEIR REACTION. I THINK THEY'RE ALL PRETTY MUCH POKER FACED. VERY YOUNG JURY. I WAS SURPRISED. I WOULD HAVE BEEN THE OLDER PERSON THERE BY TEN YEARS ANYWAY. >> YOU'RE YOUNG BUCK. THE TIME IS WINDING DOWN AND BEEN VERY CURIOUS OF THE HOME. WE SHOW PICTURES OF THE HOME THAT THEY RENTED AND ULTIMATELY BEING A MURDER SCENE FAIRLY. CURIOUS WHAT BECAME OF THE HOME? >> THE HOME WAS SOLD FOR -- THESE AREST MAITS. THE HOME SOLD NOR $480,000, I BELIEVE. IT WAS LISTED -- NOT LISTED BUT IT WAS APPRAISED OR ASSESSED FOR $430,000. I HAVE THE FIGURES IN FRONT OF ME. >> DID IT SELL? >> SOMEWHERE HERE. IT DID SELL. >> SOMEONE MOVED IN? >> OCTOBER 16th OF LAST YEAR FOR $480,000. IT HAD BEEN APPRAISED FOR $438,200. IN FISCAL YEAR '08 AND HAD BEEN APPRAISED FOR $500,900 IN FISCAL YEAR '07. >> CLEARLY THE LORE MAY HAVE ATTRIBUTED TO MAYBE TO DISCOUNT. WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT THE FAMILY THAT MOVED IN THERE? >> WELL, I WAS -- I WAS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD AND SAW A YOUNG BOY. THAT'S ALL I SAY AND THERE WAS A BRITISH TV CREW THERE AND HE SEEMED TO WANT TO GET IN FRONT OF THE CAMERA BUT THEY -- THEY DID THEIR BEST TO KEEP HIM OUT OF ANY PHOTOS. I HAVEN'T INVESTIGATED THE FAMILY AND I WOULD LEAVE THEM WITH THEIR PEACE AT THIS TIME. >> YEAH. I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU TAKING THE TIME TO TALK WITH US. IT WAS INTRIGUING READING YOUR MOMENT BY MOMENT REPORTING THROUGHOUT ALL OF THIS AND HOPE TO YOU GET ON THE SHOW AGAIN AS THE TRIAL PROGRESSES. >> THANKS, ASHLEIGH. I'M HONORED. >> LOG ON. TAKE A LOOK. MEANTIME, DO THIS. 13th JUROR. WE LIKE IT WHEN YOU GET INVOLVED IN THE PROGRAM. HERE'S THE QUESTION FOR TODAY -- YEAH. PRETTY MUCH THAT'S -- YOU KNOW WHAT? WE'LL SAY THAT'S A COMPLETE YES. IF YOU LOOK AT THE MARGIN OF ERROR ON THESE THINGS, VERY UNSCIENTIFIC. BUT PLUS OR MINUS 4%, NO HUNG JURY THERE. WE'LL BE BACK RIGHT AFTER THIS. >>> WE ARE CONTINUING TO TAKE A LOOK INSIDE OF THAT COURTROOM IN MASSACHUSETTS. WE'RE EXPECTING THEM TO RESUME WITH THE LIVE TESTIMONY LITERALLY ANY MINUTE NOW. THEY LEFT WITH SOMETHING OF A BOMBSHELL INSIDE OF THAT COURTROOM AS THE DEFENSE ATTORNEY STEPHANIE PAGE POSING SOME QUESTIONS TO THE MEDICAL EXAMINER ON THE STAND FOR THE PROSECUTION RAISED THE QUESTION OF SUICIDE. SUICIDE IN THE SENSE THAT RACHEL ENTWISTLE MAY WELL HAVE BEEN THE ONE WHO SHOT AND KILLED HER DAUGHTER AND THEN TOOK HER OWN LIFE. RAISED THE QUESTION AS A RESULT OF SOME OF THE QUESTIONS POSED TO THAT MEDICAL EXAMINER. LET'S LISTEN TO SOME OF THE QUESTIONS THAT STEPHANIE PAGE POSED AND SOME OF THE ANSWERS THAT THE MEDICAL EXAMINER GAVE. >> YOU WOULD ALSO AGREE THAT MOST GUNSHOT WOUNDS THAT RESULT FROM SUICIDE ARE TO THE HEAD OF THE PERSON, ISN'T THAT RIGHT? >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> AND THE SECOND MOST COMMON PLACE IS THE CHEST, ISN'T THAT CORRECT? >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> AND THAT 72% OF WOMEN WHO COMMIT SUICIDE WITH GUNSHOTS SHOOT THEMSELVES IN THE HEAD. YOU WOULD AGREE WITH THAT. ISN'T THAT RIGHT? >> NO. I CAN'T. >> WELL, LET ME SHOW YOU THIS, SIR. >> YEAH. >> DO YOU KNOW -- JUST READ IT TO YOURSELF. >> YEAH. >> YOU WOULD AGREE THAT THE STUDIES SHOW THAT 72% OF WOMEN -- I'M SORRY. YEAH. 72% OF WOMEN WHO COMMIT SUICIDE SHOOT THEMSELVES IN THE HEAD. IS THAT CORRECT? >> OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. >> SUSTAINED. AS TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. >> DO DISAGREE WITH THE DOCTOR'S EXPERT STUDIES THAT HAVE ESTABLISHED THAT 72% OF WOMEN WHO COMMIT SUICIDE BY GUNS SHOOT THEMSELVES IN THE HEAD? >> I HAVE NO REASON TO. >> ALL RIGHT. . NO REASON TO. IT'S A RELIABLE AUTHORITY. RIGHT? >> YES. >> SOMETHING -- SOMEONE WHO YOU HAVE RELIED UPON MANY A TIME FOR AN ULTIMATE OPINION. ISN'T THAT RIGHT? >> NO, NO. >> YOU HAVE RELIED ON HIM FOR YOUR EXPERT OPINIONS BEFORE, HAVEN'T YOU, SIR? >> YES. >> OKAY. >> YES. >> ON HIS PUBLICATIONS. >> NO. NO. >> YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH THE FORENSIC PATHOLOGY BOOK HE HAS? >> YES. >> AND YOU'VE USED THAT AS A REFERENCE. >> OH, YES. >> YES. HE IS A RELIABLE AUTHORITY. >> YES. >> OKAY. >> SO, SPEAKING OF RELIABLE AUTHORITIES, WE ARE GOING TO ARE THE OPPORTUNITY TO CHECK IN WITH ONE OF OUR OWN HERE. JOINING US ON THE PHONE FROM CLINTON TOWNSHIP, MICHIGAN, DR. DANIEL SPITZ. THANKS FOR JOINING US HERE. WE WANT TO BRING YOU IN ON THE CONVERSATION BECAUSE OF WHAT JUST LOOK TOOK PLACE IN THE COURTROOM A LITTLE BIT EARLIER. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAD A CHANCE TO HEAR SOME OF THIS BUT DEFENSE ATTORNEY STEPHANIE PAGE POSING QUESTIONS TO THE MEDICAL EXAMINER HERE OF ABOUT HOW HARD THEY LOOKED AT THE IDEA OF WHETHER OR NOT SUICIDE MIGHT HAVE ENTERED INTO THIS PICTURE HERE. SO LET ME ASK YOU WITH THIS QUESTION. AS A MEDICAL EXAMINER, WHEN YOU'RE GIVEN A CASE TO EXAMINE, DO YOU ALWAYS LOOK AT THE POSSIBILITY OF SUICIDE OR IS IT ONLY IF THERE ARE CERTAIN COMPELLING FACTS THAT WOULD YOU IN THAT DIRECTION? >> WELL, NO. YOU ALWAYS CONSIDER THE POSSIBILITY OF A SELF-INFLICTED GUNSHOT WOUND AND TO INCLUDE OR EXCLUDE THAT BASED ON THE EVIDENCE. NOW, THE EVIDENCE INCLUDES NOT JUST THE AUTOPSY AND EVALUATION OF THE WOUND BUT AN EVALUATION OF THE SCENE AND THE CIRCUMSTANCES. >> WHEN YOU SAY, LET'S START WITH CIRCUMSTANCES. A CASE COMINGS TO YOU AND AS IN THIS CASE, YOU HAVE A MOTHER -- A GUNSHOT WOUND TO THE TOP OF THE HEAD A. CHILD WITH A GUNSHOT WOUND TO THE CHEST. WHAT WOULD YOUR SORT OF EDUCATE US IF YOU WILL. AND TURN THIS INTO A CLASSROOM. IF YOU WERE TEACHING YOUNG, ASPIRING FORENSIC PATHOLOGISTS, WHAT WOULD YOU TELL THEM THEY SHOULD BE DOING, CONDUCT TO BE UNDERTAKING TO ASSESS WHETHER THIS WAS HOMICIDE OR SUICIDE? >> WELL, YOU TRY AND GET A -- INTO THE BACKGROUND OF THE CHINLG WHO YOU MAY THINK OF COMMITTED SUICIDE. YOU LOOK AT THEIR SOCIAL HISTORY. DO THEY HAVE A REASON? ARE THEY -- YOU KNOW, KNOWN TO HAVE WANTED TO COMMIT SUICIDE? A BACKGROUND TO PUT THEM AT RISK FOR THAT? CERTAINLY YOU ARE GOING TO LOOK AT THE -- NOT ONLY THE CIRCUMSTANCES BUT THE SCENE. IS THERE A GUN AT THE SCENE? WHEN'S THE NATURE OF THE BLOOD SPLATTER AT THE SCENE? IS IT CONSISTENT WITH IT BEING A SELF-INFLICTED WOUND VERSUS ONE THAT WAS INFLICTED BY ANOTHER PERSON? >>> BECAUSE THEY ARE ALMOST READY TO START LIVE. IF YOU AS THE MEDICAL EXAMINER GET A CASE AND ONE OF THE POLICE INVESTIGATORS SAYS, WELL, HERE'S WHAT WE HAVE. WE HAVE A WOMAN, A WIFE, CHILD, SHOT DEAD IN THEIR OWN BED. COVERED UP WITH THEIR BLANKETS. WE BELIEVE HUSBAND DID IT, HE'S ON THE RUN AND WE'VE GOT HIM NOW. ARE YOU STILL GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT THOSE FACTS OR ANYTHING HERE THAT MIGHT SUGGEST SELF-INFLICTED WOUNDS? >> WELL, YOU ARE. BECAUSE IF THERE SUCH A THING AS CHARACTERISTIC APPEARANCE OF THE WOUND, YOU WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THE POLICE INVESTIGATION IS ACCURATE. AND IT'S ALWAYS A COOPERATIVE EFFORT BETWEEN THE POLICE AND THE MEDICAL EXAMINER TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU'RE ON THE RIGHT TRACK. IF YOU HAVE WHAT THE POLICE BELIEVE TO BE A HOMICIDAL WOUND AND IT'S OF CONTACT RANGE, YOU KNOW, YOU MAY HAVE A DISCREPANCY THERE. JUST LIKE IF YOU HAVE WHAT IS BELIEVED TO BE A SUICIDE AND YOU HAVE A RANGE OF FIRE THAT IS NOT CONTACT OR OUTSIDE THE RANGE THAT AN INDIVIDUAL COULD CAUSE TO THEMSELVES, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A BIG DISCREPANCY THERE. SO, IT'S ALWAYS A JOINT EFFORT BETWEEN, AGAIN, THE CIRCUMSTANCES, THE SCENE INVESTIGATION, AND THE ANALYSIS OF THE WOUND IN THE COURSE OF AN AUTOPSY. >> DR. DANIEL SPITZ, ONCE AGAIN, HELPING US TO UNDERSTAND THIS. PERFORMING IN THE ROLE OF PROFESSOR FOR US. WE APPRECIATE IT, DOCTOR. THANKS FOR GIVING US SOME TIME ON SUCH QUICK NOTICE TO US. WE'LL TALK AGAIN I'M SURE DOWN THE ROAD. THANKS MUCH. >> GOOD-BYE. >> QUICKLY CHECKING IN WITH OUR BETH KARAS OUTSIDE OF THE COURTHOUSE, BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE THEY ARE GATHERED INSIDE THE COURTHOUSE. IT LOOKS LIKE IN A COUPLE OF MINUTES THEY WILL GO LIVE INSIDE THE COURTHOUSE. WHAT DO WE EXPECT TO HAPPEN THIS AFTERNOON? >> Reporter: WELL, IT WILL BE CONTINUED CROSS EXAMINATION OF WILLIAM ZANE WHO CONDUCTED THE AUTOPSIES ON JANUARY 4 th OF 2006. AND THEN WE EXPECT THE POLICE WITNESSES TO BE THE FINAL WITNESSES IN THE CASE PROBABLY FINISHING SOMETIME TOMORROW. AND THAT TESTIMONY IS EXPECTED TO INCLUDE AN AUDIOTAPED TELEPHONE CONVERSATION BETWEEN A STATE TROOPER AND NEIL ENTWISLE ON THE MORNING OF JANUARY, 23rd, THREE DAYS AFTER THE KILLINGS. >> ALL RIGHT, BETH, WE'RE GOING TO LET YOU RUN, SO YOU CAN GET BACK TO THE BUSINESS OF COVERING THIS TRIAL. WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A QUICK BREAK OF OUR OWN. WE'LL BE BACK AS YOU CAN EXPECT YOU CAN SEE INSIDE THE COURTROOM, THE JUDGE WAITING FOR THE JURORS TO GET IN. THEY ARE ALMOST READY FOR LIVE TESTIMONY. WE'LL GET YOU BACK INSIDE THE COURTROOM IN SESSION AFTER THIS BREAK. >>> GOOD AFTERNOON, WELCOME BACK, EVERYONE, TO "BANFIELD & FORD," WE'RE IN SESSION. I'M ASHLEIGH BANFIELD. >> AND I'M JACK FORD. AND THEY ARE LITERALLY BACK IN SESSION IN WOBURN, MASSACHUSETTS. >> THE MEDICAL EXAMINER, DR. WILLIAM ZANE, IS ON THE STAND AND HE'S UNDER CROSS-EXAMINATION AND JUST BEFORE WE WENT TO BREAK THE SUGGESTION WAS RAISED BY THE DEFENSE ATTORNEY IN THIS CASE THAT PERHAPS THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR THE EVIDENCE OF A SUICIDE. MEANING, RACHEL COMMITTED SUICIDE AND MURDERED HER BABY. THIS IS WHERE THEY'RE GOING WITH THE QUESTIONING, FOLKS. LET'S CONTINUE TO LISTEN. >> YES. >> AND IT COULD BE AS LATE AS SATURDAY? >> YES. >> OKAY. AND IT COULD BE ANYTIME AFTER 12:30 ON THAT FRIDAY, IS THAT CORRECT? >> YES. >> OR ANY TIME AFTER 5:30 ON THAT FRIDAY, ISN'T THAT RIGHT? >> THAT'S CORRECT. >> I'M SORRY, YOUR HONOR. >> NO, IT'S MY FAULT. >> DOCTOR, IF YOU COULD COME DOWN AND LOOK AT THESE. I'M NOW REFERRING TO EXHIBIT 89-A. AND IT'S FAIR TO SAY, BECAUSE OF THE INABILITY TO DETERMINE WITH ANY PRECISION THE TYPE OF DEATH, THAT IS WHY THE DATE OF INJURY YOU HAVE PUT UNKNOWN, IS THAT CORRECT? >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> AND THEN IF YOU LOOK DOWN A LITTLE FURTHER TO THE RIGHT-HAND CORNER, THAT IS ALSO WHY IN THE BOX THAT CAUSE -- CALLS FOR HOUR OF DEATH, YOU'VE ALSO PUT UNKNOWN, ISN'T THAT RIGHT? >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> THANK YOU. NOW, DOCTOR, IN TERMS OF THE PHOTOGRAPHS THAT WERE TAKEN AT AUTOPSY -- >> YES. >> -- YOU'D MENTIONED THAT THEY WERE A LITTLE DARKER THAN YOUR MEMORY WAS, IS THAT RIGHT? >> SOME OF THEM WERE, YES. >> ALL RIGHT. AND IN TERMS OF THE BABY, THERE SEEMED TO BE A LOT OF WHAT APPEARED TO BE INJURY TO HER FACE, IS THAT CORRECT? >> TO MY EYES, NO. >> I KNOW, BUT IF YOU COULD STEP OUT OF -- WELL, LET ME REPHRASE THAT. THERE WAS -- >> TO A LAYPERSON, YES. >> YES. AND COULD YOU EXPLAIN TO THE JURY WHAT -- WHY THE BABY'S FACE LOOKS AS IF IT'S BRUISED WHEN IT ISN'T. >> THE -- IT HAS SOME DARKENING BECAUSE IT'S BEEN EXPOSED TO AIR ED TO AIR AND SKIN DARKENS SLIGHTLY WHEN IT'S EXPOSED TO DRY AIR. >> AND IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT THIS IS PART OF THE DECOMPOSITION PROCESS? >> YES. >> AND DO TO WHATEVER -- IT MAY ALSO BE DUE TO SOME SORT OF LIVIDTY? >> YES. >> AND THE FLUIDS WHEN SOMEBODY DIES AND THEIR BODY STARTS TO DECOMPOSE, THE FLUIDS ARE PURGED OR COMING OUT OF THE MOUTH SOMETIMES? >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> AND THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED IN THIS CASE WITH THE BABY. >> OBJECTION. >> IF THE WITNESS KNOWS, YOU MAY ANSWER. >> IT'S CONSISTENT WITH PURGE. >> AND PURGING MEANS THE FLUIDS ARE -- IT'S NATURAL LEAKAGE FROM THE BODY THAT EXIT THE MOUTH FOLLOWING DEATH OVER A PERIOD OF TIME? >> YES. >> AND AS YOU TOLD US, THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE AT ALL OF ANY TRAUMA OR ANY VIOLENCE OTHER THAN THE GUNSHOT WOUND TO THE BODY OF THE BABY, ISN'T THAT CORRECT? >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> SHE ALSO -- IT'S YOUR OPINION THAT THE BABY COULD HAVE DIED WITHIN SECONDS, ISN'T THAT RIGHT? >> THAT'S POSSIBLE, YES. >> AND YOU HAD SAID HERE MINUTES OR MINUTE. >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> BUT YOU ALSO HAVE STATED AT AN EARLIER TIME IT COULD HAVE BEEN WITHIN SECONDS, ISN'T THAT CORRECT? >> YES. >> NOW, DOCTOR, OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT YOU WERE ABLE TO TRACK THE WOUND TO THE BABY INTO RACHEL -- INTO THE BREAST OF THE ADULT FEMALE, YOU WEREN'T -- YOU ARE NOT IN A POSITION TO TELL US EXACTLY THE POSITION OF THE TWO BODIES AT THE TIME THEY WERE SHOT, ARE YOU? >> THAT'S CORRECT. >> AND, INDEED, YOU WERE TRYING TO FIGURE THIS OUT, WHETHER IT WAS ONE SINGLE PASS -- ONE SINGLE BULLET TO THE BABY AND THE BREAST WHEN YOU WERE DOING THE AUTOPSIES, ISN'T THAT RIGHT? >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> AND YOU HAD POSITIONED THE BODIES IN A COUPLE OF WAYS TO SEE IF THE WOUNDS MATCHED UP, ISN'T THAT CORRECT? >> YES. >> AND ONE OF THE WAYS, I BELIEVE YOU TOLD US TODAY, WAS THAT RACHEL WAS ON HER BACK. THE ADULT FEMALE WAS ON HER BACK WITH THE BABY ON TOP OF HER, ON HER LEFT BREAST? >> YES. >> AND THERE WAS ANOTHER REPONTIONING WHERE YOU HAVE THE ADULT FEMALE HEAD FACING TO THE RIGHT SIDE AND THE BABY ON TOP OF HER FACING TO THE RIGHT SIDE? THAT WAS ONE POSITION YOU TRIED, IS THAT RIGHT? >> YES. >> AND THEN THERE WAS ANOTHER POSITION WHERE YOU TRIED WHERE THE ADULT FEMALE WAS LYING ON HER LEFT SIDE, AND THE BABY WAS LYING NESTLED INTO HER, IS THAT RIGHT? >> I SAID SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT, YES. >> OKAY. AND THE POINT IS, YOU WERE JUST TRYING -- THERE WAS NO WAY FOR YOU, AS A MEDICAL EXAMINER, TO TELL ANYONE EXACTLY WHAT THE POSITION OF THE BODIES WERE -- OF THE PEOPLE WERE WHEN THEY WERE SHOT, ISN'T THAT RIGHT? >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> AND YOU WERE NOT ABLE, FOR EXAMPLE, EVEN IN THE POSITIONING THAT YOU ATTEMPTED TO DO, YOUR CONCERN WAS TO LINE UP THE PATH OF THE WOUND, RIGHT? >> YES. >> AND YOU HAD -- EVEN THOUGH THE WOUNDS LINED UP THROUGH THE BABY INTO THE ADULT BREAST, YOU STILL HAD NO IDEA WHERE HANDS WERE, ISN'T THAT -- COULD BE, ISN'T THAT RIGHT? >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> OR WHERE THE POSITION OF THE ADULT FEMALE'S HEAD, ISN'T THAT RIGHT? >> YES. >> AND YOU HAD SEEN PHOTOS OF THE TWO BODIES IN THE BED AT 6 CUBS PATH, CORRECT? >> I HAVE SEEN PHOTOS, YES. >> AND, CLEARLY, THE BABY HAD A LOT OF LIVEDTY ON HER BACKSIDE AT THE TIME THAT YOU SAW HER, ISN'T THAT CORRECT? >> YES. >> AND THAT WOULD INDICATE THAT THE BABY WAS ON HER BACK, ISN'T THAT RIGHT? >> YES. >> AND YOU HAD BEEN -- IT HAD BEEN REPORTED TO YOU THAT WHEN THE BABY WAS FOUND, THE BABY WAS LYING ON HER BACK, ISN'T THAT CORRECT? >> I DON'T RECALL THAT. >> AND IN ORDER FOR THE PATH OF THE WOUND THROUGH THE BABY INTO THE BREAST, THE BABY COULD NOT HAVE BEEN FLAT ON THE BABY'S BACK, ISN'T THAT CORRECT? OR MAYBE I CAN ASK THAT A DIFFERENT WAY. THE BABY WOULD HAVE HAD TO HAVE BEEN UP AGAINST -- THE BABY'S RIGHT BACK WOULD HAVE HAD TO HAVE BEEN UP AGAINST THE LEFT BREAST, IS THAT RIGHT? >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> THAT'S RIGHT, CORRECT? >> YES. >> NOW, DR. ZANE, YOU AGREE THAT NO INVESTIGATION IS REALLY ALWAYS OVER. IS THAT RIGHT? >> THAT'S CORRECT. >> AND THERE MAY BE FACTS THAT BECOME AVAILABLE, EVEN AFTER YOU HAVE DONE YOUR AUTOPSY, ISN'T THAT CORRECT? >> THAT'S CORRECT. >> AND THERE CAN BE FACTS THAT BECOME AVAILABLE EVEN AFTER YOU SIGN THE DEATH CERTIFICATES, ISN'T THAT CORRECT? >> YES. >> AND IF YOU HAD MADE -- AND IF YOU IN MAKING -- I'M SORRY. IF YOU RECEIVED INFORMATION ABOUT THE MANNER THAT COULD AFFECT THE MANNER OF DEATH AFTER YOU HAD MADE A DETERMINATION ABOUT THE MANNER OF DEATH, YOU WOULD HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO INVESTIGATE THAT, ISN'T THAT CORRECT? >> I WOULD HAVE TO -- I WOULD HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO CONSIDER IT. >> YES. >> DISCUSS IT. >> YES. >> INVESTIGATE, IF IT WOULD HELP ANSWER THE QUESTION, YES. >> SURE, I MEAN, OF COURSE. I MEAN, YOU WOULD NEVER TURN A BLIND EYE TO EVIDENCE THAT CAME AFTER YOU HAD MADE A DECISION, IF IT COULD AFFECT THE INITIAL DECISION, RIGHT. >> I MIGHT HAVE, BUT I DON'T RECALL. >> I'M NOT -- I'M JUST SAYING, YOU WOULD WANT TO KNOW, TO RECONSIDER, IF IT WAS SOMETHING RELEVANT TO THE MANNER OF DEATH. >> THAT'S CORRECT. >>> BACK INSIDE THE COURTROOM. YOU CAN SEE DR. WILLIAM ZANE, THE MEDICAL EXAMINER STILL ON THE WITNESS STAND. STEPHANIE PAGE, ONE OF THE TWO DEFENSE ATTORNEYS FOR NEIL ENTWISLE HAS BEEN TAKING HIM THROUGH A SERIES OF QUESTIONS BASED UPON WHAT HE DID IN HIS EXAMINATION AND SOME SUGGESTIONS BY THE DEFENSE OF THINGS THAT WEREN'T DONE THAT PERHAPS SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE. LET'S PICK UP SOME MORE NOW WITH THE CROSS-EXAMINATION. A LITTLE BIT OF A PAUSE INSIDE THE COURTROOM. OBVIOUSLY, THEY'RE WORKING ON SOME EXHIBITS AS STEPHANIE PAGE WANTS THE WITNESS TO TAKE A LOOK AT. SO, SHE'S JUST GIVEN HIM SOMETHING ELSE TO LOOK AT. MORE CROSS-EXAMINATION. >> DR. ZANE, THAT'S A PHOTOGRAPH OF WHAT THE POLICE PHOTOGRAPHED -- WELL, THAT'S A PICTURE OF THE BODIES AS THEY WERE PHOTOGRAPHED BY THE POLICE, ISN'T THAT RIGHT? >> YES. >> AND YOU SEE ONE ARM OF RACHEL ENTWISLE IN THAT PICTURE, DON'T YOU? >> YES. >> AND YOU'RE NOT ABLE TO SEE THE OTHER IN THAT PICTURE, ISN'T THAT RIGHT? >> THAT'S CORRECT. >> THE PRESENCE OF GUNSHOT RESIDUE ON BOTH HANDS OF RACHEL ENTWISLE WOULD INDICATE THAT HER HANDS WERE NOT IN THOSE POSITIONS WHEN THE GUNSHOT RESIDUE CAME ON HER HANDS, ISN'T THAT RIGHT? >> OBJECTION. >> SUSTAINED. >> DOCTOR, YOU WERE NEVER GIVEN A CHANCE TO EVALUATE THE SCIENTIFIC RESULTS THAT THE STATE POLICE CRIME SCENE SERVICES LABORATORY OBTAINED REGARDING THE POSITIVE FINDINGS OF GUNSHOT RESIDUE, ISN'T THAT RIGHT? >> IN PART, YES. >> I MEAN, IS TODAY THE FIRST TIME YOU'VE -- YOU'VE HEARD THAT THERE WAS POSITIVE GUNSHOT RESIDUE ON HER HANDS? >> TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION, YES. >> AND, IN FACT, YOU HAD A MEETING IN JANUARY WITH PROSECUTOR FABBRI, ISN'T THAT RIGHT? >> YES. >> AND YOU HAD A MEETING IN JANUARY WITH PROSECUTOR BENNETT, ISN'T THAT CORRECT? >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> AND AT THAT MEETING THERE WAS A STATE TROOPER THERE, TROOPER MANNING, ISN'T THAT RIGHT? >> YES. >> AND THEY TALKED -- GET READY FOR TRIAL, TALKING ABOUT YOUR FINDINGS AND THE AUTOPSIES, ISN'T THAT CORRECT? >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> AND THEY REVIEWED YOUR AUTOPSY REPORT WITH YOU, RIGHT? >> YES. >> THEY REVIEWED YOUR -- YOU WENT OVER THE PHOTOGRAPHS OF -- OF WHAT YOU HAD LOOKED AT, ISN'T THAT RIGHT? >> YES. >> THEY TALKED ABOUT WITH YOU TIME OF DEATH AND WHAT FACTORS YOU CONSIDERED IN TRYING TO NARROW DOWN THE RANGE OF TIME OF DEATH, ISN'T THAT CORRECT? >> THAT'S CORRECT. >> THEY EVEN ASKED YOU ABOUT A TYPO ON YOUR REPORT, WHERE YOU WROTE "FINGERPRINT INK" WHEN IT SHOULD HAVE SAID "FINGERPRINT POWDER" ISN'T THAT RIGHT? >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> IT WAS A PRETTY DETAILED MEETING IN TERMS OF GETTING READY FOR TESTIMONY, ISN'T THAT RIGHT? >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> AND THE PROSECUTOR, PROSECUTOR FABBRI, NEVER TOLD YOU THAT THEY HAD A SCIENTIFIC TEST THAT SHOWED THAT RACHEL ENTWISLE HAD POSITIVE SIGNS -- WAS TESTED POSITIVE FOR GUNSHOT RESIDUE ON BOTH OF HER HANDS, DID HE? >> IF HE DID, I JUST DON'T REMEMBER. >> YOU WOULD REMEMBER THAT, WOULDN'T YOU, SIR? >> NO. NOT AT ALL. >> YOU WOULDN'T THINK IT WOULD BE IMPORTANT THAT ALMOST TWO YEARS LATER SOMEONE SAYS, OH, YEAH, YOU KNOW, IN JUNE OF 2006 WE GOT THESE RESULTS BACK, THOSE POSITIVE TESTS -- GUNSHOT RESIDUE ON BOTH SIDES OF RACHEL ENTWISLE'S HANDS, YOU'D WANT TO KNOW THAT? >> NO. >> DIDN'T YOU TELL US BEFORE THAT GUNSHOT RESIDUE CAN INDICATE THAT SOMEONE FIRED A GUN? >> YES. YES, I DID. >> DIDN'T YOU TELL US BEFORE THAT SOMETIMES IT IS IMPOSSIBLE -- IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN HOMICIDE AND SUICIDE? >> YES, I DID. >> AND DIDN'T YOU SAY THAT IT WOULD BE IMPORTANT TO KNOW BEFORE THIS -- WHEN YOU SAID THEY THIS MORNING WHETHER OR NOT SOMEONE HAD GUNSHOT RESIDUE ON THEIR HANDS TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THEY FIRED A GUN? >> I SAID IT WOULD BE A GOOD TEST, BUT I MEANT TO SAY IT WOULDN'T NECESSARILY HELP ME. >> BUT YOU DON'T KNOW, DO YOU? RIGHT NOW YOU DON'T KNOW IF IT WOULD HAVE HELPED YOU. >> I -- I DO WHETHER IT WOULD HAVE HELPED ME OR NOT. >> WELL, YOU WERE NOT -- YOU WERE GIVEN A CHANCE TO INVESTIGATE ANYTHING OTHER THAN WHAT YOU SAW AT AUTOPSY, ISN'T THAT CORRECT? >> IT'S MY IMPRESSION HAD I ASKED TO SEE A RESULT, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DISCUSSED WHETHER I WOULD HAVE SEEN IT, AND THEN I WOULD HAVE SEEN IT IF IT WAS APPROPRIATE FOR ME TO SEE IT. >> YOU DON'T THINK -- ARE YOU SAYING IT'S NOT APPROPRIATE WHEN YOU'RE DETERMINING THE MANNER OF DEATH FOR YOU TO BE INFORMED OF THE RESULTS OF GUNSHOT RESIDUE TESTING THAT WAS DONE ON THE SHOOTER'S -- ON THE DECEASED HANDS? >> THAT'S CORRECT. >> YOU DON'T THINK YOU SHOULD BE TOLD THAT? >> IF IT WOULD REALLY HELP IN A PARTICULAR SITUATION, YES. >> WELL, SIR, YOU'RE SUPPOSED -- YOU TOLD US YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO BE NEUTRAL, RIGHT? >> YES. >> OBJECTIVE, RIGHT? >> OBJECTIVE. >> INDEPENDENT, RIGHT? >> YES. >> YOU WANT TO KNOW ALL THE FACTS. >> I'D LIKE ALL THE FACTS. >> RIGHT. AND DON'T YOU THINK YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN TOLD ABOUT THE POSITIVE FINDINGS OF GUNSHOT RESIDUE ON RACHEL ENTWISLE'S HANDS? >> NO. NO. >> WHO DO YOU WORK FOR, SIR? >> I WORK FOR THE COMMONWEALTH. >> THE COMMONWEALTH. WHO ARE YOU TESTIFYING FOR? >> I TESTIFY -- I'M USUALLY CALLED BY THE -- >> THE PROSECUTION. >> -- THE PROSECUTION. >> RIGHT. >> AND I'M ASKED TO TESTIFY AS TO MY OPINION ON AN EXAM THAT I PERFORMED. >> AND YOU WANT, AGAIN, AND YOU'VE TOLD US THIS BEFORE, YOU WANT TO HAVE ALL OF THE FACTS AVAILABLE BEFORE YOU MAKE A CALL ABOUT MANNER OF DEATH, ISN'T THAT RIGHT? >> YES. >> YOU HAD TOLD US BEFORE THE IMPORTANCE OF GUNSHOT RESIDUE TESTING, REMEMBER THAT, THIS MORNING? >> I SAID -- I CAN'T RECALL EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. >> IF I MAY JUST HAVE A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR. >> SO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY TAKING A MOMENT TO GATHER UP SOME DOCUMENTS. WHILE THEY ARE DOING THIS, A PAUSE IN THE CROSS-EXAMINATION, A GOOD TIME FOR US TO FIT IN A BREAK. >>> WELCOME BACK. WE ARE IN SESSION. THIS IS DR. WILLIAM ZANE, THE MEDICAL EXAMINER. HE'S ON THE STAND UNDER CROSS-EXAMINATION. THE DEFENSE ATTORNEY, STEPHANIE PAGE, IS DOING A HECK OF A JOB IN PUSHING THIS QUESTION. AND THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED DURING THE BREAK, SO YOU DON'T MISS ANYTHING. SHE'S BEEN PUSHING AND PUSHING HIM TO SAY, WOULD IT NOT BE IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO KNOW, AS A MEDICAL EXAMINER, THAT YOUR VICTIM, WHO DIED OF A GUNSHOT WOUND, HAD GUNSHOT RESIDUE ON BOTH HANDS, BOTH SIDES. WOULD THAT NOT BE IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO KNOW THAT. HE HAS BEEN HAVING A VERY DIFFICULT TIME ANSWERING THAT QUESTION, MOSTLY BY SAYING, NOT NECESSARILY. HE HASN'T REALLY FOLLOWED IT THROUGH BY SAYING THERE'S A WHOLE OTHER SET OF FACTS AND CIRCUMSTANCES THAT WOULD SUGGEST WHETHER THAT'S IMPORTANT OR NOT. HE HASN'T BEEN ABLE TO SAY THAT. THEY'RE GOING TO SIDEBAR CONFERENCE. RANDY, THIS IS A GOOD OPPORTUNITY FOR YOU TO JUMP IN, AND MAYBE TELL ME WHAT I'M MISSING HERE. WHAT IS THIS MEDICAL EXAMINER NOT TELLING US, RANDY? >> WELL, I THINK WHAT'S GOING ON HERE IS HE'S VERY HESITANT TO SAY THAT THE PRESENCE OR ABSENCE OF GUNSHOT RESIDUE ON BOTH HANDS, ON BOTH SIDES OF THE HANDS WAS RELEVANT TO HIS DETERMINATION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THIS WAS A SUICIDE OR HOMICIDE. I THINK THE POINT THE PROSECUTION IS TRYING TO MAKE IS THAT IF THERE'S GUNSHOT RESIDUE ON BOTH SIDES OF BOTH HANDS, ONE MIGHT DRAW THE INFERENCE THAT IT'S MORE LIKELY THAT THAT GUNSHOT RESIDUE GOT THERE BECAUSE THE PERSON WAS HOLDING THE GUN WITH BOTH HANDS. SUICIDE. IF IT'S A HOMICIDE -- >> I'M ONLY JUMPING IN BECAUSE THE REDIRECT HAS STARTED AND I WANT TO SEE IF THE PROSECUTION HAS TO REHABILITATE THE WITNESS. LET'S LISTEN. >> -- TELL YOU THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ANY OF THOSE THREE CIRCUMSTANCES, BASED ON YOUR TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE? >> NO. IT HASN'T. >> AND, DOCTOR, NOW KNOWING THAT RACHEL ENTWISLE'S HANDS, BASED ON THE EVIDENCE, TESTED POSITIVE FOR GUNSHOT RESIDUE, DOES THAT MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN YOUR DETERMINATION IN THE CAUSE OR MANNER OF DEATH IN THIS CASE? >> OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. >> THE WITNESS MAY ANSWER. >> NOT WITH THE FINDINGS I HAVE. EXCUSE ME, NOT WITH REGARD TO THE FINDINGS I HAVE. >> AND, DOCTOR, NOW KNOWING ALL THE OTHER ADDITIONAL INFORMATION YOU KNOW ABOUT THE FACTS OF THE CASE, DOES THAT CHANGE YOUR DETERMINATION OF THE CAUSE AND MANNER OF DEATH IN THIS CASE? >> NO. IT ONLY TELLS ME THAT THE ADULT FEMALE WAS IN THE ROOM WHEN THE GUN WAS DISCHARGED. >> DOCTOR, DID YOU ORDER TOXICOLOGY TESTS TO BE PERFORMED IN THIS CASE? >> YES. >> WERE RESULTS OBTAINED? >> EXCUSE ME. I BELIEVE THEY WERE NEGATIVE. I'D LIKE TO JUST CHECK THE REPORT. >> IF HE COULD, YOUR HONOR. >> PLEASE. >> AND FOR THE RECORD, YOU HAVE FILES BEFORE YOU, BOTH ON THE AUTOPSIES OF RACHEL ENTWISLE AND LILLIAN ENTWISLE. >> I DO. >> AND WHETHER OR NOT THE TOXICOLOGY TESTS WERE REQUESTED OR ORDERED BY YOU IN CONNECTION WITH BOTH OF THE AUTOPSIES? >> FOR THE ADULT FEMALE, I SUBMITTED BLOOD, URINE AND FLUID FROM THE EYES. AND THE TESTS WERE NEGATIVE. >> NEGATIVE FOR WHAT, SIR? >> FOR DRUGS OF ABUSE. FOR ALCOHOL. NEGATIVE -- A COMPREHENSIVE SCREENING WAS PERFORMED AND IT WAS NEGATIVE. DRUG OF ABUSE, OPIATES, OXYCONTIN, BEN ZOE DIAZEPAMS. >> AND WAS THAT TOXICOLOGY TESTS BASED UPON BODILY FLUIDS YOU OBTAINED FROM RACHEL ENTWISLE AT THE TIME OF AUTOPSY? >> YES, I SUBMITTED BLOOD, FLUID, AND URINE. >> DOCTOR, YOU INDICATED YOU MADE A REPORT IN THIS CASE? >> YES. >> AND YOU INDICATED THAT YOU PREPARED DIAGRAMS IN CONNECTION WITH THIS CASE? >> YES, I DID. >> WHAT, IF ANYTHING, DID YOU STATE IN YOUR REPORT CONCERNING THE FRAGMENTS LOCATED IN THE BRAIN OF RACHEL ENTWISLE? >> IN THE REPORT I SAID I RECOVERED THEM FROM THE SUBSTANCE OF THE BRAIN OR PAREMCHMA. >> WHAT, IF ANYTHING, DID YOU SAY IN THE REPORT OF THE PROJECTILE OR TRACK OF THE PROJECTILE THAT ENTERED THE BRANEL OF RACHEL ENTWISLE? >> THAT UT WAS DOWN AND FRONT TO BACK. >> DID YOU INDICATE IN YOUR -- STRIKE THAT. THE INITIAL LOCATION IN THE BRAIN IN WHICH THE PROJECTILE ENTERED RACHEL ENTWISLE'S HEAD? >> YES, I DID. >> DID YOU INDICATE ON THE DIAGRAM THE LOCATION FROM WHERE YOU RECOVERED -- EXCUSE ME -- THE TWO FRAGMENTS THAT YOU TOOK FROM THE BRAIN OF RACHEL ENTWISLE? >> YES, I DID. >> WHAT IS THAT, SIR? >> IT'S A STANDARD DIAGRAM ON A BULLET THAT WE USE IN OUR OFF E OFFICE, AND IT HAS A -- IT'S A COPY OF THE FORM. IT'S GOT A STAMP WITH RACHEL ENTWISLE'S NAME ON IT AND THE CASE NUMBER. >> IS THAT A COPY OF THE DIAGRAM THAT YOU PREPARED IN CONNECTION WITH THE AUTOPSY OF RACHEL ENTWISLE? >> YES ARE IT IS. >> IS THAT A COPY OF THE DIAGRAM THAT YOU PREPARED IN CONNECTION WITH DOCUMENTING THE INJURIES TO HER BRAIN? >> YES. >> AND DID YOU INDICATE ON THAT SOMEHOW THE ENTRY POINT OF THE PROJECTILE INTO RACHEL ENTWISLE'S BRAIN? >> I DID. >> AND HOW DID YOU INDICATE ON THAT REPORT? >> I MADE A -- I "X'd" IN AN AREA ON THE TOP OF THE BRAIN. >> AND DID YOU INDICATE SOMEHOW ON THAT DIAGRAM, SIR, THE LOCATION FROM WHERE YOU RECOVERED THE TWO FRAGMENTS FROM THE HEAD OF RACHEL ENTWISLE? >> YES, I DID. >> AND HOW DID YOU INDICATE THAT? >> AGAIN, I SEEMED TO COLOR IN OR MARK OUT THE AREA WHERE IT WAS. >> AND THAT IS ON ONE OF THE DIAGRAMS -- ONE OF THE DEPICTIONS INVOLVING THE BASE OF THE BRAIN OR THE BRAIN TIPPED UPSIDE DOWN? >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> AND, SIR, DID YOU INDICATE ON THAT DIAGRAM IN SOME MANNER THE DIRECTION AND ANGLE OF THE PATH OF THE PROJECTILE THAT ENTERED RACHEL ENTWISLE'S HEAD? >> I DID. >> AND HOW DID YOU INDICATE THAT? >> I MADE AN ARROW. I JUST DREW AN ARROW. >> THIS WILL BE MARKED, YOUR HONOR. >> WITHOUT OBJECTION, IT MAY BE MARKED. >> EXHIBIT 91. >> AND, SIR, BASED OUR TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE, CAN THE BODY SUSTAIN CONTUSIONS AFTER THE HEART HAS STOPPED BEATING? >> WELL, BEING CONTUSED, I MEAN, BEING STRUCK AND RESULTING IN A CONSTITUTION CAN OCCUR AFTER DEATH, AND IT ALSO THERE CAN BE EVIDENCE OF CONTUSING AFTER DEATH. THERE CAN BE EVIDENCE OF A CONTUSION IN OR AROUND THE TIME OF DEATH, IT CAN BE EVIDENT AFTER THAT. >> DOCTOR, BASED ON YOUR TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE, ARE THE PAIN RECEPTORS ELSEWHERE IN THE BODY BEYOND THE SKIN? >> YES, THERE ARE. >> ARE THERE PAIN RECEPTORS IN THE MUSCLE TISSUE SURROUNDING THE MUSCLE TISSUE OF THE BODY? >> THE CONNECTIVE TISSUE, YES. >> AND WHAT ABOUT THE ORGANS OF THE BODY? THERE ARE PAIN RECEPTORS ON OR AROUND THE ORGANS IN THE BODY? >> YES, THERE ARE. >> AND IF SOMEBODY SUFFERS, FOR EXAMPLE, AN APPENDICITIS, DO THEY SUFFER PAIN, DOCTOR? >> YES, THEY MOST CERTAINLY DO. >> AND IF THEY SUFFER A HEART ATTACK, DO THEY EXPERIENCE PAIN? >> YES. >> AND IF THEY HAVE SOME SORT OF STOMACH DISORDER, DO THEY EXPERIENCE PAIN? >> IT DEPENDS ON THE DISORDER. YES. >> IF ONE SUFFERED A GUNSHOT WOUND TO THE TORSO THAT ENTERED THE FRONT LEFT BREAST, WENT THROUGH THE DIAPHRAGM, LIVER, KIDNEY, AND EXITED THE BACK -- >> OBJECTION, LEADING. >> -- WOULD PAIN BE EXPERIENCED BY THAT PERSON? >> OBJECTION. >> THE OBJECTION'S SUSTAINED. >> INJURIES TO THE TORSO IN GENERAL, SIR, DO THEY RESULT IN PAIN? >> YES. >> SIR, IF ONE WAS TO SUSTAIN A SELF-INFLICTED GUNSHOT WOUND TO THE TORSO VERSUS A SELF-INFLICTED GUNSHOT WOUND TO THE HEAD, WHICH ONE IS MORE LIKELY TO CAUSE AN EARLIER ONSET OF DEATH? >> GUNSHOT WOUND TO THE HEAD. >> AND, SIR, BASED OUR TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE AND INVOLVING SUICIDE TO THE HEAD, WHERE DO THEY TYPICALLY OCCUR? >> THEY CAN OCCUR IN EITHER TEMPLE, THE MOUTH, THE CHIN. >> AND WHETHER BASED ON YOUR TRAINING OR EXPERIENCE, SIR, GUNSHOT WOUNDS TO THE HEAD ARE CONTACT OR NONCONTACT? >> THEY'RE USUALLY -- FOR THE MOST PART, THEY'RE CONTACT. >> AND, LASTLY, SIR, BASED ON YOUR TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE, ESPECIALLY WITH SUICIDES, HAVE YOU EVER BEEN INVOLVED IN OR SEEN OR HEARD ABOUT A SUICIDE WHERE ONE PERSON TRIES TO INFLICT THEIR OWN DEATH BY SHOOTING THROUGH ANOTHER PERSON? >> NO. >> THAT'S ALL I HAVE, YOUR HONOR. >> BUT YOU DO KNOW, SIR, THAT THERE ARE INSTANCES WHERE PARENT AND CHILD END UP IN A MURDER/SUICIDE, WE'VE HAD THOSE KINDS OF CASES, RIGHT, YOU KNOW THAT, RIGHT? >> YES. >> NOW, JUST A COUPLE OF THINGS. IN TERMS OF YOUR NOTATIONS ON YOUR -- OF THE BRAIN, THE DIAGRAM -- OKAY? >> YES. >> -- WHERE THE BULLET FRAGMENTS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE. ALL RIGHT? >> YES. >> THERE IS NOTHING ON YOUR COLORING-IN AS YOU SAID TO INDICATE HOW DEEP THEY ARE, RIGHT? >> THAT'S CORRECT. >> THERE'S NOTHING OBJECTIVELY TO SHOW THE PATH FROM ONE BULLET TO ANOTHER FRAGMENT, ISN'T THAT CORRECT? >> THEY WERE BOTH THE SAME PATH. >> SIR, IS THERE ANYTHING IN YOUR REPORT OR IN YOUR DIAGRAM TO SHOW US EXACTLY WHERE THE PATH IS? >> I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION. >> LET ME RE -- TRY IT THIS WAY. WHEN YOU WERE DESCRIBING, FOR EXAMPLE, THE WOUND TO THE BREAST, YOU WERE VERY SPECIFIC THAT IT WAS A QUARTER INCH IN DIAMETER. YOU USED MEASUREMENTS, ISN'T THAT RIGHT? >> WHEN YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THE MARGINAL ABRASION, YOU DESCRIBED FROM ONE-EIGHTHS OF A WIDENING TO ONE-HALF OF AN INCH, YOU USE D, RIGHT? >> YES. >> YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO DESCRIBE INJURIES IN A REPORT IN A MUCH MORE THOROUGH WAY THAN THIS REPORT IN COLORING IN. >> YES. >> AND IT WASN'T DONE IN THIS CASE, IS THAT RIGHT? >> NO. >> WAS IT DONE? >> NO. >> THERE WAS NO -- IN TERMS OF THE ADULT FEMALE, THERE WAS NO GUNSHOT WOUND TO THE TORSO, WAS THERE? IN TERMS OF THE BREAST GOING THROUGH THE BABY. THAT WAS NOT TO THE TORSO, WAS THERE? WAS IT? >> THE TORSO IS THE CHEST AND THE ABDOMEN. >> LET ME REPHRASE THAT. THE BREAST WHERE THE BULLET ENDED UP IS MOSTLY FATTY TISSUE, ISN'T THAT CORRECT? >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> IT'S NOT MUSCLE, IT'S FATTY TISSUE, ISN'T THAT RIGHT? >> YES. >> AND THAT'S THE PATH THE BULLET WENT THROUGH AND ENDED UP IN THE LEFT BREAST, ISN'T THAT CORRECT? >> YES. >> AND AS YOU TOLD US, THAT WASN'T A DEBILITATING INJURY, ISN'T THAT CORRECT? >> THAT'S CORRECT. >> AND THAT WAS THE WOUND THAT HAD THE BRUISE AROUND IT, ISN'T THAT RIGHT? >> YES. >> AND YOU NEVER PUT IN YOUR REPORT THAT THAT WAS A BRUISE THAT WAS CAUSED AFTER DEATH, DID YOU? >> NO. >> ALL RIGHT. NOW, IN TERMS OF KNOWING WHAT YOU NOW KNOW, THAT THERE WAS POSITIVE GUNSHOT RESIDUE ON RACHEL ENTWISLE'S HANDS, YOU'RE SAYING RIGHT NOW AT 2:47 P.M., IT WOULDN'T CHANGE YOUR OPINION, RIGHT? >> THAT'S CORRECT. >> OKAY. AND THAT'S BASED ON THE FINDINGS THAT YOU HAD MADE, ALREADY MADE, YOU SAID, IS THAT RIGHT? >> YES. >> AND IT'S SAFE TO SAY THAT THOSE FINDINGS ARE FAIRLY LIMITED TO WHAT YOU TESTIFIED TO TODAY IN FRONT OF US, IS THAT RIGHT? >> YES. >> FOR EXAMPLE, WHO WAS RACHEL ENTWISLE'S DOCTOR? >> THAT I DON'T KNOW. >> YOU NEVER -- WHAT HOSPITAL DID SHE GO TO TO HAVE THE BABY? >> THAT I DON'T KNOW. >> WAS SHE BEING TREATED FOR ANY MEDICATIONS THAT MIGHT DEAL WITH DEPRESSION? >> THAT I DON'T KNOW. >> DID SHE HAVE ANY EASY ACCESS TO ANY FIREARMS? >> I SAID YES EARLIER. EXCUSE ME. MY UNDERSTANDING -- >> SIR, JUST DID SHE -- DO YOU KNOW SHE DID OR DON'T YOU KNOW SHE DID? >> I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY. >> RIGHT. WHAT WERE HER -- WHAT WAS HER LIVING SITUATION AT THE TIME OF HER DEATH? >> THAT I DON'T KNOW. >> IN FACT, YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING OTHER THAN WHAT -- ANYTHING ABOUT RACHEL ENTWISLE'S LIFE OTHER THAN WHAT YOU SAW AND WERE TOLD BY THE POLICE AND THE PROSECUTOR, ISN'T THAT CORRECT? >> OBJECTION. >> SUSTAINED. >> WHAT INVESTIGATION DID YOU DO TO TRY TO FIND OUT WHO RACHEL ENTWISLE WAS? >> I DID NOT MAKE ANY CALLS TO ANY OF HER PHYSICIANS. >> AND YOU HAD TOLD US BEFORE THAT IT'S IMPORTANT TO GET SOME HISTORY ABOUT THE PERSON, JUST LIKE ANY OTHER PHYSICIAN WOULD, RIGHT? >> OBJECTION. >> ASKED AND ANSWERED. >> SO, YOU -- AND I TAKE IT YOUR POSITION NOW IS, NO MATTER WHAT NEW EVIDENCE MIGHT COME TO LIGHT, YOU DON'T NEED -- THAT WOULD NEVER CHANGE ANY OF YOUR FINDINGS THAT YOU MADE ON JANUARY 24th, 2006. >> OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. >> SUSTAINED. >> AND YOU KNOW, DOCTOR, THAT ONE OF THE FINDINGS FOR POSITIVE GUNSHOT RESIDUE ARE NOT ONE, BUT TWO HANDS, IS THAT THAT PERSON FIRED A WEAPON. >> OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. >> THE WITNESS MAY ANSWER, IF HE'S ABLE TO. >> THAT'S ONE OF THE POSSIBILITIES, ISN'T IT? >> IT'S A POSSIBILITY, YES. >> I HAVE NOTHING ELSE. >>> NEW WITNESS CALLED TO THE STAND. DETECTIVE SERGEANT GARY FLOOD FROM SCOTLAND YARD. REMEMBER THE LONDON METROPOLITAN POLICE AND HE'S INVOLVED WITH THEIR EXTRADITION UNIT. OBVIOUSLY GOING TO TESTIFY ABOUT THE STEPS BRINGING NEIL ENTWISLE TO THE UNITED STATES. HE'S JUST BEGUN HIS TESTIMONY. LET'S GO IN AND LISTEN. >> -- WHAT WOULD YOU DO? >> ORIGINALLY WE MADE SOME INQUIRIES WITH BRITISH AIRWAYS TO ASSERT WHETHER MR. ENTWISLE HAD ARRIVEDED IN THE UNITED KINGDOM. >> DID YOU MAKE FURTHER INQUIRIES WITH OTHER AGENCIES AFTER THAT? >> WE MADE INQUIRIES WITH THE MASSACHUSETTS STATE POLICE. >> DID EVENTUALLY YOU LEARN A NAME ASSOCIATED WITH THE ALLEGED INCIDENT? >> YES, WE DID. >> WHAT NAME WAS THAT? >> NEIL ENTWISLE. >> I WANT TO CALL YOUR ATTENTION, IF I COULD, TO JANUARY 26th, 2006. DID YOU HAVE AN OCCASION TO MEET WITH ANYBODY? >> I MET WITH OFFICERS WITH THE MASSACHUSETTS STATE POLICE AND HOPKINTON POLICE DEPARTMENT. >> WHERE DID YOU MEET WITH THEM? >> THAT WAS IN LONDON, IN SCOTLAND YARD. >> WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF MEETING WITH THEM? >> TO FACILITATE -- >> AGAIN -- >> YOUR HONOR, MAY I BE SEEN IN SIDEBAR? >> YES. >> A LITTLE BIT OF A FLURRY OF OBJECTIONS COMING FROM THE DEFENSE HERE, AND IT CAUSED THE PROSECUTOR TO SAY, SAYING YOU KNOW WHAT, JUDGE, CAN WE TALK ABOUT THIS HERE. HE'S BEEN TAKING THIS WITNESS THROUGH SOME OF HIS CREDENTIALS AND HIS BACKGROUND, HOW IT IS AND WHAT IT IS HE DOES AS A MEMBER OF THE EXTRADITION UNIT. LET'S TAKE THIS TIME TO GET ONE LAST QUESTION TO RANDY JOYA WHO IS KIND ENOUGH TO WAIT WITH US HERE. THE LAST BIT OF QUESTIONS BETWEEN THE PROSECUTOR AND THE DEFENSE AND THE MEDICAL EXAMINER. WHO SCORED THERE >> I THINK THE DEFENSE LAWYER DID A FABULOUS JOB SHOWING THAT THE MEDICAL EXAMINER DID NOT DO ALL THAT HE SHOULD HAVE DONE TO RULE OUT SUICIDE AS ONE OF THE POTENTIAL MANNER -- AS THE POTENTIAL MANNER OF DEATH. IT WAS A CLASSIC CROSS-EXAMINATION. AND IF IT'S GOING TO HAVE ANY SUCCESS, MY FEELING IS WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO SEE NEIL ENTWISLE ON THE STAND. >> MY SENSE OF IT WAS, AND TELL ME IF YOU AGREE, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THE JURORS WILL ACCEPT THE ARGUMENT OR THE QUESTION, AGAIN, AS WE SAID BEFORE, DEFENSE DOESN'T HAVE TO PROVE IT, BUT HAS TO RAISE A GENUINE QUESTION. BUT I WOULD SUSPECT AT LEAST IT'S PUT IT INTO PLAY, IN THE SENSE WHEN THEY GET IN THERE AND START TO DELIBERATE, AT LEAST SOMEBODY IS GOING TO SAY TO THE OTHER JURORS, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS WHOLE THING ABOUT GUNSHOT RESIDUE, DO YOU AGREE? >> ABSOLUTELY. IT'S PUT IT INTO PLAY. THE FISH IS ON THE LINE. AND I THINK THE DEFENSE HAS TO PUT IT NOW BRING IT INTO THE BOAT. POSSIBLY WITH NEIL ENTWISLE'S TESTIMONY. OTHERWISE, I THINK IT'S GOING TO LEAVE A LOT OF UNANSWERED QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO THE GUN AND ALL THE FLIGHT AND EVERYTHING LIKE THAT, UNLESS HE CAN EXPLAIN THAT THROUGH HIS TESTIMONY. >> YEAH. AS YOU SAY -- >> WE MAY VERY WELL SEE THAT. >> IT DOES CHANGE THAT CALCULUS. RANDY, THANKS SO MUCH FOR SPENDING TIME WITH US. WE APPRECIATE IT. WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN REAL SOON. >> THANK YOU, JACK. >> YOU CAN WATCH LIVE TRIAL COVERAGE STARTING IN A COUPLE OF MINUTES AT 3:00 P.M. EASTERN. AT CNN.COM/CRIME. WE'LL BE BACK TOMORROW. MORE TESTIMONY GOING ON INSIDE THAT COURTROOM. THINGS HAVE GOTTEN HEATED. >> THERE'S NO STOPPING THE PROSECUTION. THANKS FOR JOINING US, EVERYBODY. WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN TOMORROW. |